Lost ppl student
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I've only done 13 hours, passed the law exam and see a massive mountain ahead to climb, where do I start on navigation and meteorology ! You're story of getting lost at 30 hours is a tad scary to me - in the Scottish Highlands I don't know how good ATC cover is going to be for me to ask help of but on the plus side there isn't a lot of controlled airspace for me to wander into - I'm going to need a lot of fuel though!
well done in any case!
well done in any case!
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It is actually quite hard to get lost up north especially if you know the local area.
There are tons of features and also they arn't crowded so there is no chance of confusing the roads and train tracks etc.
Pretty good cover over speyside.
Had one student who was a surveyor for the Scottish hydro. Utterly pointless giving him the normal nav-ex's. You could give him a phone box on the side of the road not even on the chart and the sod would fly straight to it.
There are tons of features and also they arn't crowded so there is no chance of confusing the roads and train tracks etc.
Pretty good cover over speyside.
Had one student who was a surveyor for the Scottish hydro. Utterly pointless giving him the normal nav-ex's. You could give him a phone box on the side of the road not even on the chart and the sod would fly straight to it.
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I do know the area quite well and you're right the roads are few and far between, I'm in the Glencoe mountain rescue team although I did get lost in Glencoe one night although the team leader doesn't know about it !
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the team leader doesn't know about it !
the team leader didn't know about it until now !
There! fixed it for you1
OP. start worrying when the big stuff starts buzzing you and you CAN'T raise ATC !!!
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I've probably told this story here before, but if its new to you, enjoy.
I used to go sailing on Chesapeake Bay, and so in the era before GPS had a pretty good picture in my mind how to find my way around, so planned a solo flight in a rented Cessna from Baltimore to First Flight. That's the little airfield on Kitty Hawk where the Wright Brothers began this whole show....
In the US of A, most major airports like to know where the little guys are, and often as not they will vector you directly overhead so they can keep an eye on you. Passing the Patuxent, then the Potomac Rivers, approaching the US Naval Airstation in Virginia, they were pleased to hear from me, and I got a birds eye view of the facilities, with military traffic landing and taking off hither and yon.
Next major hazard, Norfolk International Airport. I radioed to them to ask for a routing. They came back, said "Stand By!" I waited, then called again.
No anwer this time at all at all, so looked at my little sectional map and realised I would have to fly around their airspace, which like all major terminal areas around those parts, is shaped like an upside down wedding cake. And there, as a landmark, or sea-mark, if I flew around the point at which the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel road dived into the tunnel, I would avoid the terminal airspace. So I thought, until I rounded that mark, looked to my left, and there, appearing out of the murk, were three jumbo jets heading right at me...a big one quite close, then the next one and the last one still some way away. O dear. I did not delay, but dived down to just above the water, and scuttled around the end of the bridge.
Heard the Controller warn the jumbos to "Watch out for a Fish Spotter!"
And when I arrived safely at First Flight, turns out the air map was printed with a legend over the vital information. On the reverse, with the local area chart, it clearly indicated that the Chesapeak Bay Bridge Tunnel dived into the tunnel not once, but TWICE!
Moral of this story, even if you have been in contact with ATC, ALWAYS KEEP A GOOD LOOKOUT!!!
I used to go sailing on Chesapeake Bay, and so in the era before GPS had a pretty good picture in my mind how to find my way around, so planned a solo flight in a rented Cessna from Baltimore to First Flight. That's the little airfield on Kitty Hawk where the Wright Brothers began this whole show....
In the US of A, most major airports like to know where the little guys are, and often as not they will vector you directly overhead so they can keep an eye on you. Passing the Patuxent, then the Potomac Rivers, approaching the US Naval Airstation in Virginia, they were pleased to hear from me, and I got a birds eye view of the facilities, with military traffic landing and taking off hither and yon.
Next major hazard, Norfolk International Airport. I radioed to them to ask for a routing. They came back, said "Stand By!" I waited, then called again.
No anwer this time at all at all, so looked at my little sectional map and realised I would have to fly around their airspace, which like all major terminal areas around those parts, is shaped like an upside down wedding cake. And there, as a landmark, or sea-mark, if I flew around the point at which the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel road dived into the tunnel, I would avoid the terminal airspace. So I thought, until I rounded that mark, looked to my left, and there, appearing out of the murk, were three jumbo jets heading right at me...a big one quite close, then the next one and the last one still some way away. O dear. I did not delay, but dived down to just above the water, and scuttled around the end of the bridge.
Heard the Controller warn the jumbos to "Watch out for a Fish Spotter!"
And when I arrived safely at First Flight, turns out the air map was printed with a legend over the vital information. On the reverse, with the local area chart, it clearly indicated that the Chesapeak Bay Bridge Tunnel dived into the tunnel not once, but TWICE!
Moral of this story, even if you have been in contact with ATC, ALWAYS KEEP A GOOD LOOKOUT!!!
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If an examiner is going to tell me to find out where we are after the partial panel unusual attitude recovery stuff I'm bl**dy well going to use all the information available.
Join Date: Jun 2008
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To KNEIVIL: Nope!
In my humble opinion (if ever any of my opinions have been humble, that is)
When you are high, it is the same in terms of what you can see and therefore use to discern your location, but in an unstabalised helicopter (most GA is in unstabalised helicopters) the pilot workload from "aviate" is much higher hence there is less thinking power spare to deal with the "lost" problem. When helicopters get lower than fixed wing - given a low-level clearance, such as "not above 800 ft" for example, you lose an awful lot of vision and hence if you have no idea where you are it gets more difficult to get yourself out of the mess.
Think about it, at height you can often work out where you are from mountain ranges, the distant coastline, etc. But a mere 700 ft above the ground then you are left trying to work with the shape of a forest, or a small section of bends in a river, etc and match that to your map.
Once you admit the problem and call for help, same as fixed wing.
In my humble opinion (if ever any of my opinions have been humble, that is)
When you are high, it is the same in terms of what you can see and therefore use to discern your location, but in an unstabalised helicopter (most GA is in unstabalised helicopters) the pilot workload from "aviate" is much higher hence there is less thinking power spare to deal with the "lost" problem. When helicopters get lower than fixed wing - given a low-level clearance, such as "not above 800 ft" for example, you lose an awful lot of vision and hence if you have no idea where you are it gets more difficult to get yourself out of the mess.
Think about it, at height you can often work out where you are from mountain ranges, the distant coastline, etc. But a mere 700 ft above the ground then you are left trying to work with the shape of a forest, or a small section of bends in a river, etc and match that to your map.
Once you admit the problem and call for help, same as fixed wing.
Last edited by John R81; 30th Apr 2013 at 18:14.
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I remember my instructor at Welshpool trying to get me lost and failing most times because I was brought up around there and it's all pretty distinctive.
After one particular bit of messing around with air work:
Instructor: 'OK, surely you are lost by now. Where are we?'
Me (looks down to my left): 'Well, that's Pitchford Hall down there, so...'
Instructor: 'Damn!'
(if you don't know it, Pitchford is a huge black and white pile which was the country escape plan for the royals in WW2)
Tim
After one particular bit of messing around with air work:
Instructor: 'OK, surely you are lost by now. Where are we?'
Me (looks down to my left): 'Well, that's Pitchford Hall down there, so...'
Instructor: 'Damn!'
(if you don't know it, Pitchford is a huge black and white pile which was the country escape plan for the royals in WW2)
Tim
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My experience (post #9 above) came during a solo nav, pre cross-country. Heading back into Redhill from the East, I called Redhill from Bough Beech Resevor and was told to report at the Godstone Station VRP.
A little later, following the railway line, I came over a station and mistook it for Godstone; it was actually the one before. Then I was given a low-level approach to the Eastern airfield boundary, not above 800ft. Redhill was using 36 with Right hand circuits and helicopters are sometimes allowed to 'duck under'. I was too green to refuse, and go the long way round.
I decended to 750ft and followed the railway....... and followed the railway..... Just about the time I had concluded that the airfield should have appeared long ago, the tower called and asked where I was. Heart in mouth, I gave the truthful asnswer "I am unsure". I was too low to be able to make out anything useful, but I kne I had to leave the railway at some point and bear South a little to get to the field, so I started to turn towards the Gatwick zone. Furtunately, Redhill then asked asked my heading which was, at that time, 260.
Given the proximity of Gatwick, and the potential for me to conflict with circuit traffic, this did seem to make things happen rather smartly in the Tower. They very quickly established from Gatwick where I actually was, and calmly gave me a heading to bring me over South Godstone VRP.
Fantastic service by the chaps in the Tower, and served to reinforce in me an understanding that they are there to help you, they will help you, and they are actually rather good at helping you. Since then I have put behind me any fears about asking for assistance.
A little later, following the railway line, I came over a station and mistook it for Godstone; it was actually the one before. Then I was given a low-level approach to the Eastern airfield boundary, not above 800ft. Redhill was using 36 with Right hand circuits and helicopters are sometimes allowed to 'duck under'. I was too green to refuse, and go the long way round.
I decended to 750ft and followed the railway....... and followed the railway..... Just about the time I had concluded that the airfield should have appeared long ago, the tower called and asked where I was. Heart in mouth, I gave the truthful asnswer "I am unsure". I was too low to be able to make out anything useful, but I kne I had to leave the railway at some point and bear South a little to get to the field, so I started to turn towards the Gatwick zone. Furtunately, Redhill then asked asked my heading which was, at that time, 260.
Given the proximity of Gatwick, and the potential for me to conflict with circuit traffic, this did seem to make things happen rather smartly in the Tower. They very quickly established from Gatwick where I actually was, and calmly gave me a heading to bring me over South Godstone VRP.
Fantastic service by the chaps in the Tower, and served to reinforce in me an understanding that they are there to help you, they will help you, and they are actually rather good at helping you. Since then I have put behind me any fears about asking for assistance.
Last edited by John R81; 1st May 2013 at 11:49.
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And (off topic) what low-level can look like.
Heliroutes; SpVFR, EC120 on H7 near Barnes at 800 ft. Photo taken by Mrs 81 on her phone of the Apache flying reciprical routing, visual separation, all under Radar control from Heathrow Special. Heathrow Airport can be seen just under the horizon on the right edge of the photo.
Thanks chaps!
Heliroutes; SpVFR, EC120 on H7 near Barnes at 800 ft. Photo taken by Mrs 81 on her phone of the Apache flying reciprical routing, visual separation, all under Radar control from Heathrow Special. Heathrow Airport can be seen just under the horizon on the right edge of the photo.
Thanks chaps!
Last edited by John R81; 1st May 2013 at 11:54.
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You didn' get lost, you just went for a bit of sight seeing.
You used ATS to find you way home perfectly safely without (from what I have assumed) any infringements or problems. What you have show is the correct aptitude for a future pilot... You went wrong, realised this and then used the aids available to you in a timely and professional manner to rectify the problem.
Be proud of what you did, there are many students out there that will try and bluff it, end up on bingo fuel in class A airspace with a Typhoon on QRA saying hello (extreme example but it could happen all too easily).
Crack on and see you in the skies matey
You used ATS to find you way home perfectly safely without (from what I have assumed) any infringements or problems. What you have show is the correct aptitude for a future pilot... You went wrong, realised this and then used the aids available to you in a timely and professional manner to rectify the problem.
Be proud of what you did, there are many students out there that will try and bluff it, end up on bingo fuel in class A airspace with a Typhoon on QRA saying hello (extreme example but it could happen all too easily).
Crack on and see you in the skies matey
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Thanks
Thanks for all your positive comment, plucked up the courage to have a lesson today. Instructor came with me, did same route and I now know exactly my mistakes, one should not just rely on the heading but utilise the map and landmarks! Feeling more confident now, I think I have learned more than I thought looking back and reflecting! The flying bug has returned! Will probably have a few more lessons dual before another solo nav!