The landing and judging height.

[Piper.Classique]

Plus one for that, Chuck

[chillindan]

Chuck,

Thank you. I had a bit of a nightmare yesterday with rounding out (2nd session in the circuit). I spent last night reading this thread and the original thread and tried to keep in mind most of what I read when I was flying this morning. My landings were much better. I've started chanting out loud, "keep it flying, keep it flying, keep it flying" once I've rounded out.

Anyway, just to say thanks for the post I found it most useful today.

Danny

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Danny the main factor in performing accurate round outs is the ability to judge the height above the ground and the closing rate. ( velocity at which you are moving toward the surface. )

Next time you fly with your instructor have him / her verbally track the height above the runway starting at fifty feet.....50...40...30...20....start flare....15...10...5...hold off......4. 3. 2 .1 contact surface.

This will give both of you a very clear understand of what each of you are seeing and thus make the learning experience far more easy.

Let me know how it goes.

Chuck E.

P.S.:::

A good instructor will be able to judge the height very accurately, especially near the surface......if the instructor can not judge one foot above the runway just before contact find another instructor.

[chillindan]

Thanks again Chuck. I'll try what you suggest and let you know how it goes.

Danny

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Excellent::

Remember when you drive down the M25 you don't stay in your lane and avoid other cars by " feel " you do it by " seeing ".

Same goes for judging flare height and landing.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Danny:

This is exactly the method I use to teach height judgement.

Next time you fly with your instructor have him / her verbally track the height above the runway starting at fifty feet.....50...40...30...20....start flare....15...10...5...hold off......4. 3. 2 .1 contact surface.

The student then learns what the picture should look like.

During the latter part of the final approach you use the flare point as your aim point.

Go back to the start of this thread and read my post.

After you have flared to the level attitude if you look to close in the runway / ground will blur....if you look to far in the distance the angle becomes too flat for proper height judgment.



After you have flared to the level attitude your center of vision should be about five hundred feet down the runway ahead of you.

[Desert185]

India Four Two

2. Are 180s and 185s difficult to three-point?

I've had my 185 since 2000, and I normally wheel land it tail low at touchdown, rolling it up on the mains when it does touch. Visibility is enhanced, making it easier to maintain directional control on a narrow runway. I also feel I have better directional control in a crosswind in using brakes to assist in keeping it straight. When the tail touches (at a slow speed), I retract the flaps to keep flow over the tail and assist in the always desired directional control. Adding VG's has also improved rudder control. Its the way the airplane should have been delivered from the factory.

I live and fly mainly in the mountains. Making a three-pointer with flukey winds isn't the best scenario, but I do land that way occasionally. FWIW, I learned wheel landings before three-pointers (during the '60's). That was just the way it happened.

Frankly, I think the setup for a ground loop is light and variable wind (with flaps down) when one's guard is down, so NEVER let your guard down or the airplane will rub your nose in it.

[Silvaire1]

Once again thanks for posting that video that demonstrates so well when a wheel landing would have been the better choice.

Since the video was of a Luscombe, I'll chime in. I've discussed wheelers versus 3-point with any number of very experienced Luscombe pilots including two I can think of with 50 years of continuous ownership and thousands of hours on the type. They and others have held the opinion that the Luscombe has plenty of aerodynamic control authority to fly down to the stall in gusty winds, and for that reason you don't benefit from extra airspeed when flying close to the ground. Nor is the view down the runway better at higher airspeed, because its fine at any pitch attitude. Conversely, once slowing on the ground after a wheel landing, tail still in the air, you may run out aerodynamic control and be unable to maintain directional control at low airspeed before the tail is on the ground. That situation is not helped on the roll-out by no flaps and little mechanical brakes that are inconsistent in their response, hard to actuate, and mainly good for run up and slow taxi.

I do 3-pointers in a Luscombe unless I'm fooling around for fun. I think its an entirely type specific issue.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Conversely, once slowing on the ground after a wheel landing, tail still in the air, you may run out aerodynamic control and be unable to maintain directional control at low airspeed before the tail is on the ground.

It has been my experience when flying tail wheel airplanes that wheel landings gives me better directional control during the touch down portion of the landing, if I can contact the runway with no drift and the airplane tracking straight down the runway it is far easier to keep it straight than if it starts to drift in the stall attitude just before touch down.

If it starts out going straight keeping it straight is easier than trying to correct drift produced yaw.