Logging P1
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Logging P1
Good evening,
A scenario; There are two pilots flying along together in a two seat aeroplane. The pilot in the left hand seat is insured to fly the aircraft. The pilot in the right hand seat is current on type but not insured to fly the aircraft. The pilot in the right hand seat is flying the aircraft. Can that pilot log the flying time as P1?
Thanks,
Mona
A scenario; There are two pilots flying along together in a two seat aeroplane. The pilot in the left hand seat is insured to fly the aircraft. The pilot in the right hand seat is current on type but not insured to fly the aircraft. The pilot in the right hand seat is flying the aircraft. Can that pilot log the flying time as P1?
Thanks,
Mona
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So, the question seems to be; is it legal to log a flight that was illegally flown?
using them did hold a certain level of cover).
I believe all aircraft (at least in the UK) are now required to hold a minimum level of insurance.
Is a flight in an uninsured aircraft actually illegal, or just a very bad idea?
Anyone able to provide CAA / EASA chapter and verse on this?
Irrespective of the insurance issue was the RH seat pilot ever actually PIC in the scenario given?
Sounds a lot like someone going up with a friend in their own aircraft, or one hired from a club
by LH seat pilot. With RH seat pilot just "having a go".
When, and how, did LH seat pilot give up being PIC?
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Nothing to prevent P1 being logged from the right seat per se.
How about this though?
An uninsured pilot flying solo in either seat.
Can he/she log P1, and if not who is P1? or did the flight never take place because no one was flying the aircraft?
How about this though?
An uninsured pilot flying solo in either seat.
Can he/she log P1, and if not who is P1? or did the flight never take place because no one was flying the aircraft?
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Is a flight in an uninsured aircraft actually illegal, or just a very bad idea?
Anyone able to provide CAA / EASA chapter and verse on this?
Anyone able to provide CAA / EASA chapter and verse on this?
Mandatory Insurance Requirements | Aircraft Register | Operations and Safety
either way, if he's not insured there's no way he can log P1. Fine for him to physically fly the thing, but when it comes to an investigation after the flight, I'd not want to be the one who'd flown illegally and having to explain why. Nothing illegal about letting a friend have a go while you maintain P1 status, definitely illegal to log P1 for licencing purposes when you have no right to do so.
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I look at it another way.
Lets say an uninsured pilot takes an aircraft for a solo flight - he is undoubtedly P1 and there is nothing stopping him from logging such a flight. Of course, the insurance company may not be happy, the CAA may pursue him for a breach of the ANO etc but there is no escaping the fact that he was the pilot in command and was P1.
Taking our intrepid pair of aviators, at any time they must have identified an individual who is P1; only one pilot can log the time. However, if they choose to be stupid and allow the uninsured to be P1 then he is still pilot in command but he has broken the rules by not ensuring that the aircraft is insured.
Lets say an uninsured pilot takes an aircraft for a solo flight - he is undoubtedly P1 and there is nothing stopping him from logging such a flight. Of course, the insurance company may not be happy, the CAA may pursue him for a breach of the ANO etc but there is no escaping the fact that he was the pilot in command and was P1.
Taking our intrepid pair of aviators, at any time they must have identified an individual who is P1; only one pilot can log the time. However, if they choose to be stupid and allow the uninsured to be P1 then he is still pilot in command but he has broken the rules by not ensuring that the aircraft is insured.
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Originally Posted by Cows getting bigger
I look at it another way.
Lets say an uninsured pilot takes an aircraft for a solo flight - he is undoubtedly P1 and there is nothing stopping him from logging such a flight. Of course, the insurance company may not be happy, the CAA may pursue him for a breach of the ANO etc but there is no escaping the fact that he was the pilot in command and was P1.
Lets say an uninsured pilot takes an aircraft for a solo flight - he is undoubtedly P1 and there is nothing stopping him from logging such a flight. Of course, the insurance company may not be happy, the CAA may pursue him for a breach of the ANO etc but there is no escaping the fact that he was the pilot in command and was P1.
I guess the truth is anyone can log whatever they wish with the issue being when counting the time towards currency, etc. So if no licence then it wouldn't count.
BB
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I am not sure on this one! There is a difference being qualified and licensed to fly a particular aircraft and hence logging the hours and flying it illegally.
If an illegal flight has taken place then the CAA will prosecute the Captain or P1 of the aircraft. So there has to be a legal P1.
Take an overweight takeoff! insurance void. Who will the CAA prosecute even though the insurance is void ?
I am sure they would regard one of the pilots as being legally in command or P1 of the aircraft.
yes that Captain/PI would log the Hours and yes he would be charged with illegal operation of the aircraft if he did something which invalidated the insurance.
There is a big difference in being legally qualified to fly an aircraft and hence log hours in that aircraft AND while acting as P1 or Captain breaking laws which lead you to being charged and convicted as P1 for an offence you commit in the aircraft!.
So yes if Joe Bloggs in the right seat is qualified and licensed to fly a PA28 and it can be proved that he was acting as Captain/ P1 he can log the hours.
The CAA then discover the insurance is for a named pilot only and Joe Bloggs is not a named pilot then the CAA COULD prosecute him for flying an aircraft while uninsured but these are separate issues
Pace
If an illegal flight has taken place then the CAA will prosecute the Captain or P1 of the aircraft. So there has to be a legal P1.
Take an overweight takeoff! insurance void. Who will the CAA prosecute even though the insurance is void ?
I am sure they would regard one of the pilots as being legally in command or P1 of the aircraft.
yes that Captain/PI would log the Hours and yes he would be charged with illegal operation of the aircraft if he did something which invalidated the insurance.
There is a big difference in being legally qualified to fly an aircraft and hence log hours in that aircraft AND while acting as P1 or Captain breaking laws which lead you to being charged and convicted as P1 for an offence you commit in the aircraft!.
So yes if Joe Bloggs in the right seat is qualified and licensed to fly a PA28 and it can be proved that he was acting as Captain/ P1 he can log the hours.
The CAA then discover the insurance is for a named pilot only and Joe Bloggs is not a named pilot then the CAA COULD prosecute him for flying an aircraft while uninsured but these are separate issues
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 27th Mar 2013 at 09:41.
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I'm with Pace on this one. Even if the PIC is flying illegally, he/she can log P1. It could be used in court as an admission of guilt though, so whether it's wise to put it in the logbook is a different matter.
Even in the ultimate case. A non-pilot (no license whatsoever, not even a student pilot) hops in an aircraft, starts it and flies it solo. Of course you can argue whether someone like that is "in command" for practical purposes, but for legal purposes that person is "in command" (otherwise, who else is?), and hence should be entitled to log P1. In fact, that person could actually be legally required to log P1, even though such a person is not very likely to have a logbook.
(And now that I'm thinking about it, is there any explicit provision in the ANO or EASA-FCL that says that the experience hours required for issue or revalidation of a license/rating/whatever, need to be flown legally?)
In case of the OP I'm assuming we're either talking about a check-out scenario, or the scenario where somebody lost a medical or something like that. In that case it's best if the PIC, and thus the person who logs P1, is the person who is in every aspect legal and insured to fly the aircraft. If the other person is doing the actual handling then that's fine, but that person is not the PIC and hence logs nothing.
(Note that in a single pilot aircraft only one person can act as, and log P1, and everybody else on board logs nothing. Except when the PIC is an instructor or examiner.)
Even in the ultimate case. A non-pilot (no license whatsoever, not even a student pilot) hops in an aircraft, starts it and flies it solo. Of course you can argue whether someone like that is "in command" for practical purposes, but for legal purposes that person is "in command" (otherwise, who else is?), and hence should be entitled to log P1. In fact, that person could actually be legally required to log P1, even though such a person is not very likely to have a logbook.
(And now that I'm thinking about it, is there any explicit provision in the ANO or EASA-FCL that says that the experience hours required for issue or revalidation of a license/rating/whatever, need to be flown legally?)
In case of the OP I'm assuming we're either talking about a check-out scenario, or the scenario where somebody lost a medical or something like that. In that case it's best if the PIC, and thus the person who logs P1, is the person who is in every aspect legal and insured to fly the aircraft. If the other person is doing the actual handling then that's fine, but that person is not the PIC and hence logs nothing.
(Note that in a single pilot aircraft only one person can act as, and log P1, and everybody else on board logs nothing. Except when the PIC is an instructor or examiner.)
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I would suggest yes, up to the point of the crash, at which point the responsibility devolves around the insured.
Pretty much, Who would know, unless there is an inquiry & why would there be one of those unless there was an incident to warrant such an inquiry?
What about a situation where the owner has insured the a/c but is not qualified to fly it (taildragger frinstance) so gets his mate to ferry the a/c home while he comes too so as to "have a go", but doesn't tell the insurance co cos it is Sunday. They land safely
?
Last edited by Crash one; 27th Mar 2013 at 10:30.
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And now that I'm thinking about it, is there any explicit provision in the ANO or EASA-FCL that says that the experience hours required for issue or revalidation of a license/rating/whatever, need to be flown legally?
Oh, and a possibile interpretation of Mona's OP is that the pilots only discovered after landing that the one doing the flying hadn't been insured! - what then?
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The main question to ask of the OP is why would he want to log it?
Is he planning to use this time for his 12 hours SEP currency to revalidate his licence? In which case, best not to log anything at all as if the CAA were to do a spot check and find no insurance he'd be in trouble.
If it's just for interest from a guy who has plenty of hours, just log it as passenger or P2 or something, making it clear it's not going towards any licencing requirement, and everyone is happy.
Is he planning to use this time for his 12 hours SEP currency to revalidate his licence? In which case, best not to log anything at all as if the CAA were to do a spot check and find no insurance he'd be in trouble.
If it's just for interest from a guy who has plenty of hours, just log it as passenger or P2 or something, making it clear it's not going towards any licencing requirement, and everyone is happy.
Regulation 1178
No mention of flying the aircraft! If he cant legally fly it, he can't legally be in command!
To log PIC you must be qualified; and the aircraft must also be qualified, which under EASA requires airworthiness and Insurance. It could be stolen but that doesn't matter
‘Pilot-in-command’ (PIC) means the pilot designated as being in command and charged with the safe conduct of the flight.
To log PIC you must be qualified; and the aircraft must also be qualified, which under EASA requires airworthiness and Insurance. It could be stolen but that doesn't matter
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No mention of flying the aircraft! If he cant legally fly it, he can't legally be in command!
To log PIC you must be qualified; and the aircraft must also be qualified, which under EASA requires airworthiness and Insurance. It could be stolen but that doesn't matter
To log PIC you must be qualified; and the aircraft must also be qualified, which under EASA requires airworthiness and Insurance. It could be stolen but that doesn't matter
OK if both pilot and aircraft have to be legal to log the hours what happens if the aircraft becomes illegal in flight?
Does the Pilot in command only log up to the point that the aircraft became illegal ?
Pace
Is there really a measureable chance of some CAA official accessing a pilot's logbook, auditing the entries, cross-referencing those to a separate audit of an aircraft's insurance, and then pursing a case against the pilot?
If so, there are even more resources being wasted than I think most people would imagine, both in terms of the CAA reviewing at pilot log books (also a waste of resources) and auditing aircraft insurance. Locally we have no aircraft insurance requirement, never had one, probably never will have one, and it makes no difference whatsoever. Aircraft owners typically cover the aircraft for their own reasons, and if they don't they usually are making a sound personal decision based on what they do with the aircraft.
I haven't even mentioned the resources being wasted in discussing whether you can log PIC time in an uninsured aircraft!
If so, there are even more resources being wasted than I think most people would imagine, both in terms of the CAA reviewing at pilot log books (also a waste of resources) and auditing aircraft insurance. Locally we have no aircraft insurance requirement, never had one, probably never will have one, and it makes no difference whatsoever. Aircraft owners typically cover the aircraft for their own reasons, and if they don't they usually are making a sound personal decision based on what they do with the aircraft.
I haven't even mentioned the resources being wasted in discussing whether you can log PIC time in an uninsured aircraft!
Last edited by Silvaire1; 27th Mar 2013 at 19:27.