sNo problem, sNow problem at all

[piperboy84]

For those that are interested I tried some STOL in the powder snow today with different configurations, see vid link.

Snow STOL - YouTube

See if anybody notices where I arsed up the TO and why?

[Fuji Abound]

I think with that much runway and that aircraft all worries of not getting airborne are totally irrelevant.

It looks a lot of fun.

[piperboy84]

Where did you obtain your performance figures for contaminated runways before attempting this ?

I didn,t

From the written statements at the beginning of your video it seems you were just guessing and trying various aircraft configurations without reference to the AFM

Absolutely Correct, I was just trying different things, the AFM is a guide only (usually a best case scenario for a new plane with a new engine/prop and with a hot shot factory test pilot) and can't give exact real world figures for distances due to individual aircraft of the exact same model having differences in engine and prop condition, pilot technique and many other factors. the numbers at the beginning of the vid came from my nephew pacing off the wheel marks in the snow after each TO and Landing.

To me you arsed up the take-off at the point were you attempted the whole exercise.

Perhaps, But i now know what the real landing distance are when both the plane and myself are pushed to the limits of our respective current capabilities which for the type and location of flying i do is important to me, for example a lot of my flying is between the east to west coast of Scotland which is mostly hills and mountains with sheep farms where the upper areas are steep and impossible to land on without duffing up the plane or myself the lower areas around the farm houses are small non arable (usually grass) pastures and paddocks and rarely exceed 400 to 500 feet in length with drystone dykes at each end. I now have a better gauge of where I can and can not get into in an emergency which frames my options a little tighter and perhaps makes me a safer pilot for my passengers and myself, and that at the end of the day is the name of the game.

[The Original GF]

Snofun

You can sit in the clubhouse moaning about it, or you can get out amongst it, and learn something!

OGF

[mary meagher]

Loverly conditions, a bit of snow on the runway, but you are flying a taildragger, and THAT makes all the dif.

Having said which, a 152 did just fine for me in Oklahoma, but the runway, covered in light snow recently fallen, was immense. I did get stuck on the taxiway, however.

When landing a glider in tall grass or crop, one touches down at absolutely minimum speed on the top of the crop, everything then settles down nicely, and the world turns green. Same for landing in snow. Taking off, you did the right thing if you walked the runway first to check for drifts!

[Jonty]

Looks like you had a lot of fun!

I reckon you over rotated on the take off. Probably completely wrong though, as I have zero experience of this type of flying. (something Im looking to change!)

[xrayalpha]

Glad to see you were having some fun!
Looks like you only had a couple of inches of snow, which I have flown off quite a few times.
There are four-plus inches here and it has drifted into the hollows, so lovely day but no flying.
With a pusher prop, I turn the engine off as I go over the fence to stop snow being kicked up into the prop - it can fair scour the tips and edges!

[piperboy84]

Looks like you only had a couple of inches of snow

yes it was light, but what struck me is the TO numbers, i have never achieved them on a normal grass TO, granted I was trying my hardest on the snow but wondered if its possible that a very thin covering of powder on top of hard frosted grass actually is LESS friction and allowed me to get the numbers i did

[M-ONGO]

Congratulations on becoming a test pilot!

[piperboy84]

Congratulations on becoming a test pilot!

Hardly, just a VFR lowtime duffer finding his feet and pushing the boat out a bit further

[Richard Westnot]

Nice Flying!

My two small observations were :-

a/ @0.30 - the aircraft pitched down. (possibly incorrect trim set??)
I think that I would have allowed more straight and level
ground effect after t/o, than an immediate climb out with
nil obstructions.

b/ @0.46 - a dog wandering around, off a lead close to the runway.
(presumably, part of your party??)

[mad_jock]

In theory commercially we can accept up to 10cm of dry snow.

But when you look into it the friction coeffcient can vary between 0.1 and all the way up to 1.40.

Given a good length of runway your main issues aren't what you would expect. The biggest danger is xwinds when you are on the ground and getting blown off the side.

So I am not suprised your landing distances are shorter than grass.

But I suspect the expert on this is as usual Pilot DAR

[piperboy84]

RW

a/ @0.30 - the aircraft pitched down. (possibly incorrect trim set??)
I think that I would have allowed more straight and level
ground effect after t/o, than an immediate climb out with
nil obstructions

You are right, i think there were 2 reasons for the dip, at just prior to lift off i pulled the flaps from 24 deg (take off position) to 40deg(landing position) as recommended by other more experienced maule pilots to break ground, however I think I returned it back to 24 degrees to early causing the dip and prior to building a bit more speed and should have kept it in ground effect longer.

[Richard Westnot]

PB84

I am not sure what the Maule techniques are, as I have never flown one, but pulling 40 degrees of landing flap immediately during rotation just doesn't sound right!
(I may be wrong, off course!)

The only time that I have played around with flaps during the t/o roll, is commencing with 0 degrees (no drag) and then pulling 15 degrees (t/o setting) just prior to rotation, to lift her off, BUT, then holding her in ground effect to build the speed
up, prior to climb out.

As Mad Jock says - I would be interested to learn what Pilot DAR says.....

[Skylark58]

I notice the dog was not wearing a hi-viz jacket....

Good for you. Get out there and enjoy yourself. It beats sitting in front of a computer sending a lot of

[piperboy84]

I certainly don't discount the importance of the AFM however I have had instruction by 2 extremely experienced Maule pilots that highlighted to me why certain practices are and are not in the AFM.

The two individuals are Ray Maule ie. "Mr Maule" the guy that builds the planes and another guy in Montana who does pipeline patrol , wildlife monitoring and missing people search's in the Glacier National park with his 2 Maules which he has thousands of hours on.

When flying with Ray he demonstrated a short field TO without bumping the flaps , a few months later I was flying with the guy in Montana who did bump the flaps . I said that Mr Maule did not do this during the flight demo , "Mr Montana" explained why Mr. Maule who builds , sells, trains on and holds the type certificate for the Maule does not do so. Specifically, if he taught students or published in the AFM that you get better TO performance from bumping the flaps (which you no doubt do) but this method involves removing your hand of the throttle, which is a danger in itself, and leaning down to the flap handle which restricts your forward visibility, if someone got hurt or killed while doing this the liability is not worth it for Maule, however if Mr Montana whose home field is 4000ft up in the mountains with his 160hp FP and with a hellacious density altitude he is more concerned with the 50ft oak at the end of a short strip than he is with lawyers.
So it's a double edged sword, you get better performance which in itself is safer, but it's not in the AFM for what i can only assume is liability reasons.

I have enclosed a link from the factory website for the AFM for my aircraft, if anybody can find ANY take off performance data whatsoever I would appreciate them pointing me to it.

http://www.mauleairinc.com/pdf/fligh.../mx_7_180a.pdf

Some advice, take it or leave it your choice, although from some of your comments you will probably ignore it.

I never ignore advice, however I do evaluate it,, Fly Safe

[Jonty]

PB,

It really isn't worth replying to these people.

You have done exactly the right thing in taking advice from people who actually fly these things. Don't start taking advice from randoms off the internet. Except mine of course

Enjoy the flying, it looks like you had a lot of fun!

[dont overfil]

I'm sure PB knows how to write a risk assessment. He will also know how useful it can be for wiping ones arse should one **** oneself.

Good one PB.

D.O.

[Echo Romeo]

What I find most impressive is that this took place on the March 13th

[stickandrudderman]

I suspect that post #1.5 is missing and so subsequent posts don't look right. I presume the missing post was some boring old fart who doesn't know anything.........I'd better stop now.