Trial lessons and cockpit limitations
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Trial lessons and cockpit limitations
Evening all,
As a gliding club offical and instructor I field quite a few queries from Joe Public interested in trial lessons. With society in general getting heavier and taller, I find myself having to increasingly turn away people because they are outside the normally held cockpit maxima for gliders of 16 stones and/or 6ft 2 inches tall (at least until someone has the good sense to develop a variant with less restrictive limitations).
My question is what the corresponding limits are for, say, a C172 or Pa28, or anything else that anyone knows that has higher limitiations so that I can say "Not but try these people if you really want to fly" rather than a more unhelpful "No !".
Looking forward to hearing your suggestions
Pegpilot
As a gliding club offical and instructor I field quite a few queries from Joe Public interested in trial lessons. With society in general getting heavier and taller, I find myself having to increasingly turn away people because they are outside the normally held cockpit maxima for gliders of 16 stones and/or 6ft 2 inches tall (at least until someone has the good sense to develop a variant with less restrictive limitations).
My question is what the corresponding limits are for, say, a C172 or Pa28, or anything else that anyone knows that has higher limitiations so that I can say "Not but try these people if you really want to fly" rather than a more unhelpful "No !".
Looking forward to hearing your suggestions
Pegpilot
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The 172s I fly have a MTOW of 2400LBs. With full fuel this roughly translates to two 15 stone blokes in the front, and two (petite) female passengers in the back 
. Or else one larger passenger in the rear, with no baggage.
The 160bhp PA28 I imagine would be similar.
EDIT - and having just played with the W&B calculator I reckon you could get someone up to around 17 stone into the front, allowing for a 15 stone instructor, without moving the CofG too far forward. So quite a bit of scope for 'larger' students, with a less than trim instructor!
. Or else one larger passenger in the rear, with no baggage. The 160bhp PA28 I imagine would be similar.
EDIT - and having just played with the W&B calculator I reckon you could get someone up to around 17 stone into the front, allowing for a 15 stone instructor, without moving the CofG too far forward. So quite a bit of scope for 'larger' students, with a less than trim instructor!
Last edited by taxistaxing; 10th Jan 2013 at 19:48.
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Height
I'm 6' 4". I haven't met many aircraft that I can't get in to, though some are a bit more of a compromise than others.
One thing I have noticed is that "normal" size pilots/students are more prone to complaining about ergonomics / cockpit fit. Taller pilots are just grateful to be able to get in and are more likely to accept the compromises that may be required.
A restriction based just on height is over-simplistic. The relative proportions of our bodies vary significantly so a "no fit" for one person may be fine for another of an equal height. When there is a question over whether someone will fit in the cockpit I ask them to come to the airfield just to see if we can get them in, if they fit then we book them a flight.
One thing I have noticed is that "normal" size pilots/students are more prone to complaining about ergonomics / cockpit fit. Taller pilots are just grateful to be able to get in and are more likely to accept the compromises that may be required.
A restriction based just on height is over-simplistic. The relative proportions of our bodies vary significantly so a "no fit" for one person may be fine for another of an equal height. When there is a question over whether someone will fit in the cockpit I ask them to come to the airfield just to see if we can get them in, if they fit then we book them a flight.
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Trial lessons and cockpit limitations
I weighed 18 stone when i did mine in a c152 but my instructor only weighed 10... We were still out with full fuel though
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I usually fly either 172s or PA28s, wanted to buy my own and was considering buying a low hour TB10, mainly because it was wider across the cockpit. I'm also 6'4" but pulling the canopy closed, my head felt cramped - this was without a headset. Either way, I wanted to carry out a test flight but by the time I'd run up the motor and taxied to the runway, I just knew I would not be happy with such a machine on a multi-hour flight so left it.... a pity because the width across the cockpit was perfect, two doors as opposed to the 1 on a PA28.....
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Trial lessons and cockpit limitations
When I had a trial flight last summer, there was a restriction of 16 stones for the Cessnas so took mine in a PA28.
Now into my PPL course and really enjoying flying the PA28 and glad I was "forced" down that line...
Guess each school will have its own rules/recommendations...
Now into my PPL course and really enjoying flying the PA28 and glad I was "forced" down that line...
Guess each school will have its own rules/recommendations...
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I think if a lot of schools actually had weighing scales and weighed pilot and passenger(s) they would get some surprises. In my experience most pax/students underestimate their weights by up to 2 stones sometimes
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Im 6ft 3in tall, not overly weighty, and have not found a glider I couldn't fit in and fly comfortably. However, it's not pure height, but the dimensions of the parts of the body that may be important - I happen to be rather tall but evenly proportioned, so I 'passed' the RAF test for bang seats in all types, whereas shorter people with proportionately longer legs would not be able to fly in the Harrier, for example. Certainly, the K13, K21, Discus, Duo Discus, DG1000, Ash 25, Fox, various ASWs, T21, Pegase, and others, fitted me without a problem.
A more practical and pragmatic approach, at least to height, might be in order?
A more practical and pragmatic approach, at least to height, might be in order?
You would be overgross with a total pax weight of 28 stone and full fuel in any of the 3 C 152's that the school I sometimes teach at operates..........
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I know the world is funny these days...and it was when I was teaching 30plus years ago...I had one student who was too big height, weight both. He insisted that since the C152 couldn't carry him that he should be charged the same as a C152 when flying the PA28 or C172.
We said no.
No law suit...but he made a big fuss about it.
so be careful. I think the Cherokee is wonderful for teaching...but do the weight and balance...you might even need the Archer 180 hp and even put ballast in the rear.
We said no.
No law suit...but he made a big fuss about it.
so be careful. I think the Cherokee is wonderful for teaching...but do the weight and balance...you might even need the Archer 180 hp and even put ballast in the rear.
Biggest student I ever had was 6 foot 10 and weighed 350 pounds. He could check the fuel on a C 172 by just leaning over the front of the wing while still standing on the ground 
.
He could only fly the aircraft fitted the optional articulating seats which he placed full down and all the way back on the seat rail safety stops. We also had to put a case of oil in the baggage compartment to keep with in the C of G limits.
. He could only fly the aircraft fitted the optional articulating seats which he placed full down and all the way back on the seat rail safety stops. We also had to put a case of oil in the baggage compartment to keep with in the C of G limits.
Moderator
I understand that a "stone" is a unit of weight for a person, though it is not a unit I've ever seen used in certification of aircraft. The design requirement for a seat is 170 pounds, unless that seat is placarded for a lesser weight (the kiddy seat in the back of a 150/152 being an example of a lesser occupant weight being placarded).
Ironically, the weight of the occupant of a seat is not generally "limited" to 170 pound, or any other weight, unless specifically placarded. Every other compartment or restraint device will have a limiting maximum capacity - except a seat, unless placarded. You are still bound by the whole aircraft weight and C of G limits though. Quietly, regulators admit that they just don't want the political minefield of limiting occupant weight. Those occupants should know though, that the heavier they are the less protection/security they have in a crash.
So, if you would like to carry a strapping lad/lass, and the aircraft does not have a placarded limitation for a seat either on/near the seat, and in the flight manual limitations section, and you can fit them in, you are permitted to fly them - bu YOU must be content that it's safe.
Ironically, the weight of the occupant of a seat is not generally "limited" to 170 pound, or any other weight, unless specifically placarded. Every other compartment or restraint device will have a limiting maximum capacity - except a seat, unless placarded. You are still bound by the whole aircraft weight and C of G limits though. Quietly, regulators admit that they just don't want the political minefield of limiting occupant weight. Those occupants should know though, that the heavier they are the less protection/security they have in a crash.
So, if you would like to carry a strapping lad/lass, and the aircraft does not have a placarded limitation for a seat either on/near the seat, and in the flight manual limitations section, and you can fit them in, you are permitted to fly them - bu YOU must be content that it's safe.
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The Ikarus C-42 has a seat loading of 120kg.
Due to instructor weight most schools can't use the full 120kg for the student and stay within cockpit limits or MTOW with fuel as well.
Chatteris airfield has a sub 50kg instructor (me
) starting next month: AAA Microlights Cambridgeshire | Learn to fly at Chatteris Airfield Cambridgeshire
Due to instructor weight most schools can't use the full 120kg for the student and stay within cockpit limits or MTOW with fuel as well.
Chatteris airfield has a sub 50kg instructor (me
) starting next month: AAA Microlights Cambridgeshire | Learn to fly at Chatteris Airfield Cambridgeshire
