Spin Recovery Training
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Spin Recovery Training
I'm a relatively low hours PPL and found during my training the stall exercises difficult from a fear aspect. I did the recoveries required fine in my test but I still get very concerned when I'm flying with an experienced pilot/instructor who tells me they are going to show me how the aircraft reacts when it stalls. Since getting my PPL I've chatted with a few pilots of varying experience who all recommended doing some spin recovery training to try and overcome my fears/concerns and think I would benefit from this advanced training.
I've just got a couple of weeks clear in my schedule and was about to contact Ultimate High when I noticed on their website they are now based at Goodwood, presumably having moved from Kemble where I thought they were based. Goodwood is too far for me to travel from Oxfordshire so any recommendations as to where else I could go for this training or indeed suggestions of how to overcome my concern of stalling?
Thank you....
I've just got a couple of weeks clear in my schedule and was about to contact Ultimate High when I noticed on their website they are now based at Goodwood, presumably having moved from Kemble where I thought they were based. Goodwood is too far for me to travel from Oxfordshire so any recommendations as to where else I could go for this training or indeed suggestions of how to overcome my concern of stalling?
Thank you....
Yes, bit of a shame that Ultimate High relocated to Goodwood. I'm sure there are many schools that teach aeros, and thus spinning. But do ensure you have a parachute. I teach in the Bulldog, but we don't have parachutes.
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Firstly, there is not a lot to be scared about. By understanding more how an aeroplane arrives at the stall, what it does when in stall, and how it gets from stall to spin, and from that understanding the recovery procedures, in all aspects of the above, then this will go some way to alleviating concerns and/or apprehensions you may have.
You must also remember that most aeroplane types will behave differently, ie differing charecteristics, but the basic physics are generally the same. Ultimate High would be good experience, but you should bear in mind that your brief is to alleviate fears, understand what happens in the types you fly, and gain confidence. Give them a call first, and discuss your goal.
Ask around your flying base, and see if you can get an aeros guy to take you up. Again I would suggest that you clearly state that you wish experience and recovery of such activity. The last thing you need is some hot shot terrifying the living daylights out of you.
I think it extremely good that you seek additional stall/spin awareness and enjoy every minute of it when you get that first flight.
You must also remember that most aeroplane types will behave differently, ie differing charecteristics, but the basic physics are generally the same. Ultimate High would be good experience, but you should bear in mind that your brief is to alleviate fears, understand what happens in the types you fly, and gain confidence. Give them a call first, and discuss your goal.
Ask around your flying base, and see if you can get an aeros guy to take you up. Again I would suggest that you clearly state that you wish experience and recovery of such activity. The last thing you need is some hot shot terrifying the living daylights out of you.
I think it extremely good that you seek additional stall/spin awareness and enjoy every minute of it when you get that first flight.
Yep!,
That sounds good. May I suggest that you find a Tiger Moth school, and try that first, as it is a 'comfortable' slower spin,....and a straight forward recovery!
Then go for ride in a DHC-1 Chippy, and experience the faster rate of turn in the spin...and the recovery....and you will never 'fear' another aeroplane again....ever.
A Most Enjoyable experience....and,...YOU have control!
Griffo, Chippy driver.
That sounds good. May I suggest that you find a Tiger Moth school, and try that first, as it is a 'comfortable' slower spin,....and a straight forward recovery!
Then go for ride in a DHC-1 Chippy, and experience the faster rate of turn in the spin...and the recovery....and you will never 'fear' another aeroplane again....ever.
A Most Enjoyable experience....and,...YOU have control!
Griffo, Chippy driver.
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Do some in a glider first to understand the aerodynamics aspects. It's much clearer then..............
Demonstrations should include>:
>Approach to the stall
>Symptoms & Signs
>The stall itself - not all stalls have a huge pitch down of the nose - you can be stalled and mushing along quite easily...........
>The recovery
>The spin - different entry types/techniques
>The recovery
>Differences between spins and spiral dives
Then do some yourself........... under supervision
Eventually you might just enjoy it. A good instructor makes all the difference..............
I never used to, I still don't but I'm not scared of them...............
Arc
Demonstrations should include>:
>Approach to the stall
>Symptoms & Signs
>The stall itself - not all stalls have a huge pitch down of the nose - you can be stalled and mushing along quite easily...........
>The recovery
>The spin - different entry types/techniques
>The recovery
>Differences between spins and spiral dives
Then do some yourself........... under supervision
Eventually you might just enjoy it. A good instructor makes all the difference..............
I never used to, I still don't but I'm not scared of them...............
Arc
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A few years ago I went for a practice flight with an airline captain to do some stalls in our AA5 Traveller. Up at 4000 ft, power off and column slowly brought fully back so it was in my groin. The aircraft never dropped a wing, just buffetted violently. I dont have the POH to hand but seem to remember it stating No Spins.
Well if I couldn`t get it passed the incipient stage, would the only way of spinning it have been to drop a wing manually? Dont remember the captains answer.
Well if I couldn`t get it passed the incipient stage, would the only way of spinning it have been to drop a wing manually? Dont remember the captains answer.
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19 years.
That's how long I suffered from the OP mentioned fear.
Every time I did a check ride or BFR (I know that's not what it's called any more), CPL check, etc. I would get better and better at "recovering" from the stall before it actually stalled...
The week before I did my PPL check ride, I was practising, and I inadvertently stalled the C152 into a spin. I don't think it spun more than 1 revolution, but at the time I 'knew' it went round and round at least 6 times and I was completely upside down. I passed my PPL and then over the next 20 years did everything I could to avoid stalls.
One day I told an instructor about my fear, and he said "Let's go flying". (He is an ex-military pilot, so I felt safe with him if we were going to do stalls)
So we got the weight right in the C172 such that with the two of us it was in the utility category, and we went out and did stalls, lots of stalls. Within 15 minutes I was in love with stalls and partial spins. No more fear of stalls.
That's how long I suffered from the OP mentioned fear.
Every time I did a check ride or BFR (I know that's not what it's called any more), CPL check, etc. I would get better and better at "recovering" from the stall before it actually stalled...
The week before I did my PPL check ride, I was practising, and I inadvertently stalled the C152 into a spin. I don't think it spun more than 1 revolution, but at the time I 'knew' it went round and round at least 6 times and I was completely upside down. I passed my PPL and then over the next 20 years did everything I could to avoid stalls.
One day I told an instructor about my fear, and he said "Let's go flying". (He is an ex-military pilot, so I felt safe with him if we were going to do stalls)
So we got the weight right in the C172 such that with the two of us it was in the utility category, and we went out and did stalls, lots of stalls. Within 15 minutes I was in love with stalls and partial spins. No more fear of stalls.
Spinning in "most" civil aircraft is nothing to worry about although I once nearly didn't get a Condor out as an idiot had adjusted up the brake on one side and restricted rudder movement.
I was told that you couldn't spin a cherokee by an examiner. - proved him wrong as one of the ATA pilots - joan Hughes - had shown me how to do it.
Around 10 knots above the stall apply simultaneous full rudder and back stick and it goes in a treat. Did same on the Condor and executed half a flick roll and found myself upside down!
Always demonstrated a three turn spin and then let the victim do same - otherwise they are so frightened they can't appreciate what is happening and don't loose their fear.
Would agree that trying it in a glider is a great experience.
But check the weight and balance before hand as lost a friend due to an aft C of G when he accidently spun.
I was told that you couldn't spin a cherokee by an examiner. - proved him wrong as one of the ATA pilots - joan Hughes - had shown me how to do it.
Around 10 knots above the stall apply simultaneous full rudder and back stick and it goes in a treat. Did same on the Condor and executed half a flick roll and found myself upside down!
Always demonstrated a three turn spin and then let the victim do same - otherwise they are so frightened they can't appreciate what is happening and don't loose their fear.
Would agree that trying it in a glider is a great experience.
But check the weight and balance before hand as lost a friend due to an aft C of G when he accidently spun.
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Sharpend, you mentioned parachutes... They are always worn in gliders, and gliders are one of the best machines to learn to spin.
Another aspect of wearing a 3 inch Parachute is that it is a more comfortable back-rest, and moves you forward in the seat, to give a more forward CofG. If a lightweight glider pilot is flying, it is usual to add 5Kg or so of Lead Balast to the nose of the glider, to increase stability.
The other aspect of the Parachute is that if you really c**k it up, and break a wing off, you can always float down to earth, minus the aircraft.
Another aspect of wearing a 3 inch Parachute is that it is a more comfortable back-rest, and moves you forward in the seat, to give a more forward CofG. If a lightweight glider pilot is flying, it is usual to add 5Kg or so of Lead Balast to the nose of the glider, to increase stability.
The other aspect of the Parachute is that if you really c**k it up, and break a wing off, you can always float down to earth, minus the aircraft.
Skysport UK have no Bulldogs with parachutes. The Bulldog is very benign in a spin, but a few of my chums have had to take to the silk when they failed to recover from the spin. Possibly this was due to incorrect recovery drill, but I still would not deliberately spin without a chute.
Yes, a back pack chute is a good idea, for many reasons (unless you have an aeroplane with a ballistic chute). Personally, as I suffer from short legs, a packpack chute helps. Nothing is worse in a spin than not selecting full opposite rudder.
Yes, a back pack chute is a good idea, for many reasons (unless you have an aeroplane with a ballistic chute). Personally, as I suffer from short legs, a packpack chute helps. Nothing is worse in a spin than not selecting full opposite rudder.
The spin is an aerobatic manoever. Personally I think "spin" training per se is a waste of time. If you really want to move to the next level of flying skill then you should IMO take an introductory aerobatics course. True comfort in the air comes when you realize it doesn't matter if the airplane is upside down or pointed straight up it is still perfectly controllable.
I also think that instructors who have not had aerobatic training should not be allowed to conduct spins. There is just to much that can go wrong in a botched spin entry/recovery and somebody with no aerobatic training will not necessarily recognize a bad situation developing or know what to do........
I also think that instructors who have not had aerobatic training should not be allowed to conduct spins. There is just to much that can go wrong in a botched spin entry/recovery and somebody with no aerobatic training will not necessarily recognize a bad situation developing or know what to do........
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A few years ago I went for a practice flight with an airline captain to do some stalls in our AA5 Traveller. Up at 4000 ft, power off and column slowly brought fully back so it was in my groin. The aircraft never dropped a wing, just buffetted violently. I dont have the POH to hand but seem to remember it stating No Spins.
Well if I couldn`t get it passed the incipient stage, would the only way of spinning it have been to drop a wing manually? Dont remember the captains answer.
Well if I couldn`t get it passed the incipient stage, would the only way of spinning it have been to drop a wing manually? Dont remember the captains answer.
I pressed a bootful of left rudder and up we went!
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Mushing along in a 152 Aerobat trying to get it to stall, the instructor suddenly gives a boot full of rudder and over we go.
Spinning down, I look at him, he looks at me and since I've only done about five hours to this time, I wait for him to sort it out.
No briefing, no warning and I think I said "ooh!" as we went into the spin.
I am not rated for Aerobatic flight.
Spinning down, I look at him, he looks at me and since I've only done about five hours to this time, I wait for him to sort it out.
No briefing, no warning and I think I said "ooh!" as we went into the spin.
I am not rated for Aerobatic flight.
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What is the fuss about ?
You can learn tha basics of spin recovery in a Cessna 152 ( providing it has had the rudder AD done).
All my students get the chance to learn spin recovery on the PPL course, I simply could not let anyone fly an aircraft without knowing they could recover from a spin situation.
However I would never go spinning with a student without a full briefing, doing this by surprise is just stupid........... But I have had students demonstrate spin entry to me by surprise !
All my students get the chance to learn spin recovery on the PPL course, I simply could not let anyone fly an aircraft without knowing they could recover from a spin situation.
However I would never go spinning with a student without a full briefing, doing this by surprise is just stupid........... But I have had students demonstrate spin entry to me by surprise !
I've done lots of spins, mostly in gliders. Gliders, especially Blanik L-13s, do have the tendency to convert a spin into a spiral dive.
Glider clubs seem to cling to requiring fully developed spins in the annual checkout. While I can agree that you do want a student to be familiar with recovery from a full spin, it's the incipient spin turning base at 300' or lower that kills glider pilots.
At low level, the pilot really needs to recognise an incipient spin and promptly recover as waiting for a developed spin before initiating recovery will be fatal.
But the check flight culture in many clubs requires pilots to take a glider into a fully developed spin and sit out a turn or two in complete violation of basic survival instincts before initiating recovery. From a 4000' tow there's room for at most two fully developed spins. Then there's no altitude remaining to check recognition and prompt recovery from incipient spins -- and the check flight is over for another year.
That altitude could be better used nibbling at the stall and demonstrating several prompt recoveries when the wing drops.
Of course in aerobatic training, you do need to explore the many different ways spins can develop and how to recover from them. But for flying cross country, proficiency in spins at an aerobatic level is not necessary.
Glider clubs seem to cling to requiring fully developed spins in the annual checkout. While I can agree that you do want a student to be familiar with recovery from a full spin, it's the incipient spin turning base at 300' or lower that kills glider pilots.
At low level, the pilot really needs to recognise an incipient spin and promptly recover as waiting for a developed spin before initiating recovery will be fatal.
But the check flight culture in many clubs requires pilots to take a glider into a fully developed spin and sit out a turn or two in complete violation of basic survival instincts before initiating recovery. From a 4000' tow there's room for at most two fully developed spins. Then there's no altitude remaining to check recognition and prompt recovery from incipient spins -- and the check flight is over for another year.
That altitude could be better used nibbling at the stall and demonstrating several prompt recoveries when the wing drops.
Of course in aerobatic training, you do need to explore the many different ways spins can develop and how to recover from them. But for flying cross country, proficiency in spins at an aerobatic level is not necessary.
Last edited by RatherBeFlying; 8th Dec 2012 at 03:26.
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Going for a Spin.
Hi, McSki was originaly worried about the Stalling Practice which is required for the PPL training, and a lot has been said about Spin Recovery or recovery from the incipient stage.
You could go one step further and try some total 'Spin Avoidance' technique. We all know that as the speed decreases the use of the rudder becomes more important; If you can absolutely nail the nose of the aircraft onto some landmark on the horizon, by the use of the rudder, you will find it impossible for the plane to enter a spin from a stall, and even the stall can be just a rapid mush.
In a glider, if you are watching the base of the Yaw String on the canopy, if it moves sideways by just one inch, you can be sure the wing-tip has moved backwards by one foot. which means that the tip could be below the stalling speed... i.e. a spin in the making.
All training aircraft are different, and the Piper Tomahawk is probably the easiest to enter a spin, and the high wing Cessna types are more benign. If McSki lives anywhere near a Gliding Club, he should see if they can give him a few trial flights, with spin included. (If you are in the Midlands, then the Long Myndd GC is the best option, with a westerly wind onto the ridge.)
You could go one step further and try some total 'Spin Avoidance' technique. We all know that as the speed decreases the use of the rudder becomes more important; If you can absolutely nail the nose of the aircraft onto some landmark on the horizon, by the use of the rudder, you will find it impossible for the plane to enter a spin from a stall, and even the stall can be just a rapid mush.
In a glider, if you are watching the base of the Yaw String on the canopy, if it moves sideways by just one inch, you can be sure the wing-tip has moved backwards by one foot. which means that the tip could be below the stalling speed... i.e. a spin in the making.
All training aircraft are different, and the Piper Tomahawk is probably the easiest to enter a spin, and the high wing Cessna types are more benign. If McSki lives anywhere near a Gliding Club, he should see if they can give him a few trial flights, with spin included. (If you are in the Midlands, then the Long Myndd GC is the best option, with a westerly wind onto the ridge.)
Last edited by phiggsbroadband; 8th Dec 2012 at 11:35.