Flying to the Alps
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Flying to the Alps
Hi everyone,
I am new here (and to the world of flying in general). I recently started to do my PPL, about 20 hours in so far.
I am based in London and I am contemplating the idea of being able to fly my self to go skiing somewhere in the Alps (french or swiss). I am sure that some of you have already looked into it so I am looking for general advise like :
- How practical is it ? What are the best airports / airfields to fly into ? I saw that some resort like Meribel or L Alpe D huez have their own on site.
- What extra ratings should I absolutely get ?
- What kind of aircraft would be the most suitable?
I am still at an early stage of the reflection so any general input is welcome
Thanks!
Sebastien
I am new here (and to the world of flying in general). I recently started to do my PPL, about 20 hours in so far.
I am based in London and I am contemplating the idea of being able to fly my self to go skiing somewhere in the Alps (french or swiss). I am sure that some of you have already looked into it so I am looking for general advise like :
- How practical is it ? What are the best airports / airfields to fly into ? I saw that some resort like Meribel or L Alpe D huez have their own on site.
- What extra ratings should I absolutely get ?
- What kind of aircraft would be the most suitable?
I am still at an early stage of the reflection so any general input is welcome
Thanks!
Sebastien
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I regularly fly to the Alps, but never in the winter. The chance of getting vfr weather all the way across France and on into the mountains, and then for the return, is almost nil.
If you fly what the French consider a ULM, you are excused the site specific flight test for some ski destinations (Megeve is a fun one, but it is not a place to have sudden doubts about your ability!).
In general, forget it until you get an IR, and a known icing machine, and a French mountain rating.
If you fly what the French consider a ULM, you are excused the site specific flight test for some ski destinations (Megeve is a fun one, but it is not a place to have sudden doubts about your ability!).
In general, forget it until you get an IR, and a known icing machine, and a French mountain rating.
To The Alps
SEB 86,you have hit on one of GA's best experiences.
I suggest you have 'ground visit' in the SKI season and visit Megave for a few trips with the resident club.
When i went they were still using Jodels on ski's , and we took off from Megave and flew up to land on a glacier at 9'000 ft.
The insrutuctor ( who spoke no English) swung the prop on our J119 that had ski's that could retract a few inches to allow a landing on tarmac.
He never touched the controls during the entire operation which included t/off down the slope, and landing on the galacier.
On our return i indicated i wanted to do a couple of landings,and this was all included.
This was one on my most memorable flights in a small aircraft,the views were spectacular and the whole experience bought home just how much fun GA can be.
The French are very good at doing this,and i highly recommend it.
However the downside is coming back to UK and wondering how we manage to take the fun out of most things.
By the way the food at the Megave Altiport is very good.
I suggest you have 'ground visit' in the SKI season and visit Megave for a few trips with the resident club.
When i went they were still using Jodels on ski's , and we took off from Megave and flew up to land on a glacier at 9'000 ft.
The insrutuctor ( who spoke no English) swung the prop on our J119 that had ski's that could retract a few inches to allow a landing on tarmac.
He never touched the controls during the entire operation which included t/off down the slope, and landing on the galacier.
On our return i indicated i wanted to do a couple of landings,and this was all included.
This was one on my most memorable flights in a small aircraft,the views were spectacular and the whole experience bought home just how much fun GA can be.
The French are very good at doing this,and i highly recommend it.
However the downside is coming back to UK and wondering how we manage to take the fun out of most things.
By the way the food at the Megave Altiport is very good.
Last edited by POBJOY; 5th Dec 2012 at 19:19.
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Having flown to France recently I can confirm they are much better at making pilots welcome than British airports generally are. You will find that some forumites here will say 'don't do anything adventurous until you have an IR and 2000 hrs.
ImHo you should do what gives you a buzz whilst staying within your envelope of ability. If you can be honest with yourself then you are well qualified to judge when you are ready to take on the next challenge. Make sure your stick and rudder skills are top notch as being able to really fly when everything else is against you may keep you alive.
It's completely feasible to be flying yourself to the alps with 100hrs P1 you can be there in 2 years of strip flying. Just make sure that when you go you leave enough time to be weathered in.
Feel free to pm me and I'll take you into some tricky farm strips in my plane. You'll quickly see that it's all just basic skills you can learn and practise rather than sky-godliness.
ImHo you should do what gives you a buzz whilst staying within your envelope of ability. If you can be honest with yourself then you are well qualified to judge when you are ready to take on the next challenge. Make sure your stick and rudder skills are top notch as being able to really fly when everything else is against you may keep you alive.
It's completely feasible to be flying yourself to the alps with 100hrs P1 you can be there in 2 years of strip flying. Just make sure that when you go you leave enough time to be weathered in.
Feel free to pm me and I'll take you into some tricky farm strips in my plane. You'll quickly see that it's all just basic skills you can learn and practise rather than sky-godliness.
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We're talking about two things here - Flying TO the Alps FROM the UK in MID WINTER! Without a lot of experience, capable equipment and an IR - practically no chance. Unless you wait for every weather system to pass through before making another hop closer. That could take weeks! French winter flying weather is, if anything, even worse than in the UK. Claggy, and as you approach higher ground, even more variable.
BA to GVA, and then taking an instructional tour from an Altiport - no problem and great fun. But that's hardly 'flying himself to go skiing'.
BA to GVA, and then taking an instructional tour from an Altiport - no problem and great fun. But that's hardly 'flying himself to go skiing'.
Last edited by Joe le Taxi; 5th Dec 2012 at 20:30.
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Realistically your chances are poor and it seems such a wonderful idea,
I too had the same goals a long time ago when I first started flying.
The problem is of course largely the weather. Holidays for most at least are based on going on a certain day and coming back on another - if you are lucky maybe the window might extend over an extra day or two. The issue is the chances of being able to do this flight in VMC on two given days in the winter are very poor. There is a chance but it is not a good one. Worse, there is also a possibility that if you were really unlucky a sequence of three or four days when VFR is not possible is on the cards.
With an instrument rating the flight is more likely but even then I wouldn't bet on two given days both proving possible.
With an instrument rating and a deiced aircraft you are close to being in business and have better than an 75% chance of operating to schedule but then only if you are really current and flying airways regularly with an aircraft capable of at least oxygen FLs and of course with oxygen.
Other issues are inevitably weight. As you probably know you need a pretty capable aircraft to do that trip with anymore than two adults, the amount of luggage you will want to take and fuel.
In short it is such a lovely idea but without the right aircraft and qualifications and / or lots of time to spare it is very unlikely you will be lucky enough to run to schedule.
and even then ask yourself if you really want the pressure?
I too had the same goals a long time ago when I first started flying.
The problem is of course largely the weather. Holidays for most at least are based on going on a certain day and coming back on another - if you are lucky maybe the window might extend over an extra day or two. The issue is the chances of being able to do this flight in VMC on two given days in the winter are very poor. There is a chance but it is not a good one. Worse, there is also a possibility that if you were really unlucky a sequence of three or four days when VFR is not possible is on the cards.
With an instrument rating the flight is more likely but even then I wouldn't bet on two given days both proving possible.
With an instrument rating and a deiced aircraft you are close to being in business and have better than an 75% chance of operating to schedule but then only if you are really current and flying airways regularly with an aircraft capable of at least oxygen FLs and of course with oxygen.
Other issues are inevitably weight. As you probably know you need a pretty capable aircraft to do that trip with anymore than two adults, the amount of luggage you will want to take and fuel.
In short it is such a lovely idea but without the right aircraft and qualifications and / or lots of time to spare it is very unlikely you will be lucky enough to run to schedule.
and even then ask yourself if you really want the pressure?
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On top of what Fuji Says I would add that be careful flying in mountainous regions where you can easily get downdraughts which will exceed the climb ability of a light single.
Beware of landing at high altitude airports without the experience of doing so numerous times.
The first time you attempt such a flight do so with someone who is IR rated and experienced in mountain flying.
Much better to do what others have suggested which is to get a scheduled flight there and rent some time on a ski plane with an experienced instructor!
Maybe even consider a french mountain flying rating?
Pace
Beware of landing at high altitude airports without the experience of doing so numerous times.
The first time you attempt such a flight do so with someone who is IR rated and experienced in mountain flying.
Much better to do what others have suggested which is to get a scheduled flight there and rent some time on a ski plane with an experienced instructor!
Maybe even consider a french mountain flying rating?
Pace
Some friends of mine own a C210 Silver Eagle. (Allison 250 turbo prop conversion of P210)
We have been to Corchevel several times direct from strip in Berkshire. About 3 hours IFR at F200 ish.
Not a trip to depend on, due Alp weather, has to be VFR arrival obviously, and can get stuck there if no hangarage and de ice available.
Great when conditions permit.
We have been to Corchevel several times direct from strip in Berkshire. About 3 hours IFR at F200 ish.
Not a trip to depend on, due Alp weather, has to be VFR arrival obviously, and can get stuck there if no hangarage and de ice available.
Great when conditions permit.
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I think some of the replies give good reasons but for the wrong situations 
An IR is of course great for European touring but it doesn't help getting into a mountain runway which doesn't have an instrument approach.
Not any more... Courchevel, among about 50 other French airports, no longer has Customs, so those great direct trips from the UK are finished.
In fact I am amazed the French did that stupid move because they not only lose business from the UK but also Switzerland, Croatia and importantly Russia. All for the cost of paying one policeman to look at passports!
It's quite possible to do what the OP wants but he will have to pick his weather carefully and that applies at any time of the year. You can get lovely high pressure blue-sky conditions in the winter too; in fact in the winter one gets much less haze at altitude. The weather factors limit the despatch rate to a level which is probably much lower than most people would expect.
If OTOH you want to fly to a "proper" airport, somewhere in the vicinity like most skiers fly to and then get a bus, then an IR with a de-iced plane with all the kit will give you a good despatch rate. But that's a long road from starting a PPL...
An IR is of course great for European touring but it doesn't help getting into a mountain runway which doesn't have an instrument approach.
We have been to Corchevel several times direct from strip in Berkshire
In fact I am amazed the French did that stupid move because they not only lose business from the UK but also Switzerland, Croatia and importantly Russia. All for the cost of paying one policeman to look at passports!
It's quite possible to do what the OP wants but he will have to pick his weather carefully and that applies at any time of the year. You can get lovely high pressure blue-sky conditions in the winter too; in fact in the winter one gets much less haze at altitude. The weather factors limit the despatch rate to a level which is probably much lower than most people would expect.
If OTOH you want to fly to a "proper" airport, somewhere in the vicinity like most skiers fly to and then get a bus, then an IR with a de-iced plane with all the kit will give you a good despatch rate. But that's a long road from starting a PPL...
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Seb
I noticed you have 20 hrs total time at present so not yet a PPL holder.
It is good to look forward to fulfilling your ambitions and seeing what or what is not so possible.
If it is your desire to fly to the Alps and if you have the cash it maybe worthwhile once you have your licence to plan such a trip but fly it with an instructor. Many would relish such a flight and it would be a good learning experience especially flown VFR.
The other option would be to take yourself off to somewhere like Meribel and do some mountain flying in one of the Jodels on Skis.
You do not have to do a mountain rating course but can do some experience flights with the excellent instructors there.
The scenery is breathtaking in some of the beautiful weather you can get in winter in that area.
It is an experience you will never forget flying over brilliant white snow so close to such large mountains.
You will also get a taste of what mountain flying involves.
Pace
I noticed you have 20 hrs total time at present so not yet a PPL holder.
It is good to look forward to fulfilling your ambitions and seeing what or what is not so possible.
If it is your desire to fly to the Alps and if you have the cash it maybe worthwhile once you have your licence to plan such a trip but fly it with an instructor. Many would relish such a flight and it would be a good learning experience especially flown VFR.
The other option would be to take yourself off to somewhere like Meribel and do some mountain flying in one of the Jodels on Skis.
You do not have to do a mountain rating course but can do some experience flights with the excellent instructors there.
The scenery is breathtaking in some of the beautiful weather you can get in winter in that area.
It is an experience you will never forget flying over brilliant white snow so close to such large mountains.
You will also get a taste of what mountain flying involves.
Pace
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Hi Seb,
And Hi everybody,
I am new to the forum and have been reading along for some time, Thank you all for sharing a lot of helpful information!
In August this year I completed my PPL training in Switzerland. For obvious reasons this involved lots of mountain-specific work. Throughout that time my instructor took me to a number of airstrips all around Switzerland, and most of the higher altitude fields are close to some skiing area or other. The top destination would certainly be Samedan. It is at 5600ft and a very popular destination to touch down with your private jet in winter time. The trip there is one stunning view after another, you can find some approach videos on the net, check out the Maloja or Julier routes. You have to take a short test after studying a presentation about the significance of density altitude, doing W&B, and thelike. However this can all be done through the internet. If pressure is low or temperature high, you quickly end up at a DA of 8000 ft or more, which makes takeoff and climbing to exit the valley a real challenge. Guess that was why my instructor took me there in the summer
Now besides being wonderfully located, why would you go there? St. Moritz is right around the corner, so is Pontresina, or you take a short scenic train ride to Bernina. Superb skiing there, and most times above fog and clouds.
Or you could fly to Sion LSGS right down the Rhone valley, from there you can access a whole range of skiing areas, among which I would recommend Crans-Montana. Actually when you approach LSGS through the Montana VOR, you fly right across the slopes.
Then there are many more airfields close to ski runs, like fly into Buochs LSZC and then go for Engelberg/Titlis.
In case you are planning for a trip to Switzerland, check out the Swiss ICAO map showing you all airfields. It is online and free. You can combine it with bergfex and pick your own airport-plus-skiing combination
Oh and one thing, our flying club close to Zurich operates Super Cubs with skies attached in the winter. Plus we have some experienced glacier instructors available. Just in case you want to give this a spin.
Best Regards
Christian
And Hi everybody,
I am new to the forum and have been reading along for some time, Thank you all for sharing a lot of helpful information!
In August this year I completed my PPL training in Switzerland. For obvious reasons this involved lots of mountain-specific work. Throughout that time my instructor took me to a number of airstrips all around Switzerland, and most of the higher altitude fields are close to some skiing area or other. The top destination would certainly be Samedan. It is at 5600ft and a very popular destination to touch down with your private jet in winter time. The trip there is one stunning view after another, you can find some approach videos on the net, check out the Maloja or Julier routes. You have to take a short test after studying a presentation about the significance of density altitude, doing W&B, and thelike. However this can all be done through the internet. If pressure is low or temperature high, you quickly end up at a DA of 8000 ft or more, which makes takeoff and climbing to exit the valley a real challenge. Guess that was why my instructor took me there in the summer
Now besides being wonderfully located, why would you go there? St. Moritz is right around the corner, so is Pontresina, or you take a short scenic train ride to Bernina. Superb skiing there, and most times above fog and clouds.
Or you could fly to Sion LSGS right down the Rhone valley, from there you can access a whole range of skiing areas, among which I would recommend Crans-Montana. Actually when you approach LSGS through the Montana VOR, you fly right across the slopes.
Then there are many more airfields close to ski runs, like fly into Buochs LSZC and then go for Engelberg/Titlis.
In case you are planning for a trip to Switzerland, check out the Swiss ICAO map showing you all airfields. It is online and free. You can combine it with bergfex and pick your own airport-plus-skiing combination
Oh and one thing, our flying club close to Zurich operates Super Cubs with skies attached in the winter. Plus we have some experienced glacier instructors available. Just in case you want to give this a spin.
Best Regards
Christian
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Thanks a lot for your answers! There arent many internet forum where I would get that many quality reply in 24 hours.
Anyone ever flew into Sion airport ? Its very close to Verbier and it seems less complicated than an the mountain airfield ?
Anyone ever flew into Sion airport ? Its very close to Verbier and it seems less complicated than an the mountain airfield ?
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Yes, I've done what you would like to do, several times, to Sion direct from a muddy UK field, in Feb and March, in an RV-7. Its a lovely trip. Don't be put off by going in winter. You do need to be thorough with forecasts and give yourself spare time, if things change, tho I have yet been weather delayed. Try to get your IMC rating anyhow. Sion is easy to navigate VMC even if there is a cloud base. The runway is only 1600 asl in the valley floor. Head over Lausanne, next to Lake Geneva, follow the lake into a wide valley straight ahead for a few miles and then follow the same wide valley around to the left, Sion is dead ahead. You are within the mountains for ten minutes at the most. Interesting busy airport, both civilian and military and not too pricey to park for a few days
Train to Verbier, change at Martigny. I once had a door to door race with a friend who was travelling on an Airbus via Geneva, Central London to Verbier. My flight time was a smidge over three hrs and I was quickest total journey time by an hour.
I would wait until you have a bit more foreign travelling hours, a trip or two to northern France, but good luck and watch the forecasts like a hawk.
Train to Verbier, change at Martigny. I once had a door to door race with a friend who was travelling on an Airbus via Geneva, Central London to Verbier. My flight time was a smidge over three hrs and I was quickest total journey time by an hour.
I would wait until you have a bit more foreign travelling hours, a trip or two to northern France, but good luck and watch the forecasts like a hawk.
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I was gonna say, if you are happy going non-stop VFR on top (ca existe en France?), then you stand a good chance of success. I go UK to Samedan several times a year, and the weather actually in the mountains is often clear as a bell, (but that's in a twin-jet, able to divert to Zurich IFR if need be, or indeed a multitude of en route alternates too. I'm not sure I'd be comfortable doing the same in a VFR piston single.)
If however, you choose normal below cloud VFR, then keep a watch on orbifly's met map and see how often (or not)! there are green VFR blobs along the entirety of your route in winter.
Sorry to be the pessimist.
If however, you choose normal below cloud VFR, then keep a watch on orbifly's met map and see how often (or not)! there are green VFR blobs along the entirety of your route in winter.
Sorry to be the pessimist.
