Local Bimble, Almost (Not) a Near-miss
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Local Bimble, Almost (Not) a Near-miss
Was up for a bimble a few weeks ago, came back to join and on crosswind spotted another a/c on the downwind leg (Looked a bit like a Cub) but it was going the wrong way. I had the telltale 'fixed and growing in the windscreen' so took early avoiding action. My first concern was that it was going the wrong way on our downwind leg, and should I have continued my circuit I would have hit him on the downwind corner. The guys on the ground saw it and asked me if I saw the reg on the a/c. I gave them a negative, used extra vigilance (Although he wasn't on the radio I had visions of him using the circuit for the opposite runway due to it being late in the day, hardly anyone about and zero wind with the sun very awkward on the runway in use), I didn't want to meet him again on the ground and kept an eye on him whilst carrying on with my now defunct circuit.
He disappeared into the sun and I made an uneventful landing. After said landing, one of the club's most experienced pilots (16,000hrs+) confirmed that he was the one who asked if I caught the reg as he was going to report him. I wasn't going to argue, as I have only just celebrated my 100th hour, but my first thought was 'isn't that a bit harsh?' If VFR and flying into the sun it can be difficult to navigate, as we all know. I know it could have been fatal, but it wasn't, and we've all been lost at some point or another. It wasn't a close call, he was a long way off me. A good mile or two, at least.
Am I wrong? What's your thoughts?
He disappeared into the sun and I made an uneventful landing. After said landing, one of the club's most experienced pilots (16,000hrs+) confirmed that he was the one who asked if I caught the reg as he was going to report him. I wasn't going to argue, as I have only just celebrated my 100th hour, but my first thought was 'isn't that a bit harsh?' If VFR and flying into the sun it can be difficult to navigate, as we all know. I know it could have been fatal, but it wasn't, and we've all been lost at some point or another. It wasn't a close call, he was a long way off me. A good mile or two, at least.
Am I wrong? What's your thoughts?
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...he was going to report him.
Maybe in the UK everything is different again, but in my part of the world, you need to be inside a control zone orn an ATZ in order to be protected from other traffic while doing your traffic patterns. As there are currently no ATZs in my part of the world, every airfield without a control zone must be considered open airspace. Of course it is not the best airmanship to fly through traffic patterns at or below pattern height, but it ain't forbidden.
My most impressive experience like the one you had was an American B52 flying right through the traffic circuit of an aerodrome where I was practising landings with a student. Luckily he was slightly below pattern height so we didn't get into his wake turbulence (almost certainly lethal for a C152 at 1000ft AGL) but got away with an "incipient heart attack" instead... When I asked the radio operator if he had seen that monster, he replied "never mind, they do that all the time, complaints are useless".
UK rules of the air require pilots to conform to the traffic pattern when near any airfield whether or not it has an ATZ. Flying the wrong way on the downwind leg to an active runway is not legal.
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If its uncontrolled and no pattern is published , who decides if its left or right traffic?
Sounds like a typical unplanned bimble.
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Theoretically the signals square. They seem to be going out of fashion. Maybe AG radio?
OP, might the cub you saw have been non-radio and simply joined the circuit, happening to choose the opposing runway to you for whatever reason (you mentioned it was nill wind), and then decided to abort the landing? Maybe it wasn't obvious which runway was in use?
Last edited by taxistaxing; 8th Nov 2012 at 15:17.
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If its uncontrolled and no pattern is published , who decides if its left or right traffic?
(1) Subject to paragraph (2), a flying machine, glider or airship flying in the vicinity of what the commander of the aircraft knows, or ought reasonably to know, to be an aerodrome shall:
(a) conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that aerodrome or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b) make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply if the air traffic control unit at that aerodrome otherwise authorises.
(b) make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
If there was "hardly anyone about and zero wind with the sun very awkward on the runway in use" maybe the Cub (or whatever it was) pilot had the wit to use a runway that wasn't "very awkward with the sun". Why do so many UK pilot follow each other around like sheep, instead of thinking? Why not use a runway that wasn't tricky because of where the sun was? I'm sure we've all experienced that horrible squinting into a glaring sun that's right at the end of the runway through 30-year old glazed and scratched Perspex. Land on another runway - no bother.
Shame that scenario didn't occur to the 16,000-hour pilot, who was so keen to file a complaint.
Shame that scenario didn't occur to the 16,000-hour pilot, who was so keen to file a complaint.
Last edited by Thud105; 8th Nov 2012 at 17:52.
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Although your experience pilot friend said he was going to report him, he may in fact have meant as an airprox.
The airprox system is in place so if you feel you have had a close call, you can report it, it's not a system of blame, it's an assessment of whether a near miss actually occurred, and what could be done in either training or legislation to avoid similar events.
I've had two such reports filed, one where we were both flying over a local gathering, I feel we both learned a valuable lesson about extra vigilant when looking at something other pilots may well be wanting to look at, and one with a fast jet low level, which probably happens every day.
You could file a report on this occurrence if you felt that a near miss took place, but it is ideal if both parties file a report.
UK Airprox Board
The airprox system is in place so if you feel you have had a close call, you can report it, it's not a system of blame, it's an assessment of whether a near miss actually occurred, and what could be done in either training or legislation to avoid similar events.
I've had two such reports filed, one where we were both flying over a local gathering, I feel we both learned a valuable lesson about extra vigilant when looking at something other pilots may well be wanting to look at, and one with a fast jet low level, which probably happens every day.
You could file a report on this occurrence if you felt that a near miss took place, but it is ideal if both parties file a report.
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Hi, Could it have been that the Cub was not trying for a Landing, but had just
Taken Off from the out of sun runway, and was just setting course for a cross country to another airfield?
Taken Off from the out of sun runway, and was just setting course for a cross country to another airfield?
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I think that you were Very lucky.
A year ago we lost a good friend to a mid air within the circuit.
BBC News - Martin Hickin fatal air crash report blames sun
Low sun could be to blame.
As for circuit direction. I was always taught ALL circuits are to the left unless otherwise stated.
RIP Martin
A year ago we lost a good friend to a mid air within the circuit.
BBC News - Martin Hickin fatal air crash report blames sun
Low sun could be to blame.
As for circuit direction. I was always taught ALL circuits are to the left unless otherwise stated.
RIP Martin
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Maybe in the UK everything is different again, but in my part of the world, you need to be inside a control zone orn an ATZ in order to be protected from other traffic while doing your traffic patterns
What if it's an airfield like (for example) Bembridge where it is not actually "closed" but is unmanned on certain days, so there is no signals square. Circuits only allowed on one side of the aerodrome so circuit direction reverses according to the wind direction which you gauge from the windsock, and make blind calls. If it's nill wind, and you're non radio, you could be caught out by someone who happened to have chosen the opposing runway.
OP, might the cub you saw have been non-radio and simply joined the circuit, happening to choose the opposing runway to you for whatever reason (you mentioned it was nill wind), and then decided to abort the landing? Maybe it wasn't obvious which runway was in use?
I'm pretty sure the intention wasn't to land, as he never turned base, he just flew on his path.
If there was "hardly anyone about and zero wind with the sun very awkward on the runway in use" maybe the Cub (or whatever it was) pilot had the wit to use a runway that wasn't "very awkward with the sun". Why do so many UK pilot follow each other around like sheep, instead of thinking?
As for my own decision, I landed into the sun as the A/G guy told me it was favourable with the (very little) wind. We also discussed using the other and I elected not to as I was confident that I could make the landing without any drama. It's a pretty standard practice at our field. If you can, do it. As I said before, circuits are only allowed on one side so when the circuit's busy you don't want to go landing on whichever runway you please. It was quiet on this occasion but it's a habit we get into. If you want to use the other runway and it's busy it's best to stay out of the circuit either until it quietens down or the A/G operator gets a few comments along the same lines and elects to change his recommendation.
Shame that scenario didn't occur to the 16,000-hour pilot, who was so keen to file a complaint.
Although your experience pilot friend said he was going to report him, he may in fact have meant as an airprox.
Hi, Could it have been that the Cub was not trying for a Landing, but had just
Taken Off from the out of sun runway, and was just setting course for a cross country to another airfield?
Taken Off from the out of sun runway, and was just setting course for a cross country to another airfield?
I think that you were Very lucky.
A year ago we lost a good friend to a mid air within the circuit.
A year ago we lost a good friend to a mid air within the circuit.
Anyway, back to the original question. Assuming he meant ringing the CAA or the nearest tower to find him or something, isn't that a bit harsh? What would you do?
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During my building up of solo time at wellesbourne, I was doing circuits and the useless controller there (no names mentioned but it certainly wasn't John) cleared a slower aircraft than me to take off when i was mid final. Nearly ran into the back of him as he was climbing out, so broke left to deadside and rejoined accordingly.
Other times the circuit used to get very very busy indeed with sometimes 7 aircraft all buzzing round. Again we got quite close but we were all in the same direction. When it got a bit too busy, "final to land" and try it again later in the day. Just becomes a tad bit uncomfortable when its like that.
Another time me and the instructor were out and about around leicester and out from nowhere came a glider being towed. We were around 400ft above them and nowhere near where a glider could be towed away from..
Alls well in the end, just keep your eyes wide open!
Other times the circuit used to get very very busy indeed with sometimes 7 aircraft all buzzing round. Again we got quite close but we were all in the same direction. When it got a bit too busy, "final to land" and try it again later in the day. Just becomes a tad bit uncomfortable when its like that.
Another time me and the instructor were out and about around leicester and out from nowhere came a glider being towed. We were around 400ft above them and nowhere near where a glider could be towed away from..
Alls well in the end, just keep your eyes wide open!
F4TCT
The AIP says that Wellesbourne has FIS, not ATC, so it would not be a controller and he would not have issued a take-off clearance. So what does that make you for not understanding the service that you were receiving...?
2 s
During my building up of solo time at wellesbourne, I was doing circuits and the useless controller there (no names mentioned but it certainly wasn't John) cleared a slower aircraft than me to take off when i was mid final.
2 s
The current Sandown runway status thread reminded me of a near miss I had there.
Downwind right-hand for 23 in a radio-equipped Tiger Moth, we nearly had a head-on with an untalkative C150 which was downwind left-hand for the reciprocal runway 05.
I hadn't previously thought about the implications of different circuit directions for the same runway at uncontrolled airports, but I'm very aware of it now.
F4TCT,
You should know that gliders are often aero-towed cross-country, particularly large, heavy two-seaters. It's often more convenient that moving them by trailer.
From the tug pilot's point of view, 400' would be lots of clearance and I suspect he had probably seen you well in advance. Towing gliders, particularly near a busy gliding field, is very much a "look out of the cockpit" business.
Downwind right-hand for 23 in a radio-equipped Tiger Moth, we nearly had a head-on with an untalkative C150 which was downwind left-hand for the reciprocal runway 05.
I hadn't previously thought about the implications of different circuit directions for the same runway at uncontrolled airports, but I'm very aware of it now.
We were around 400ft above them and nowhere near where a glider could be towed away from..
You should know that gliders are often aero-towed cross-country, particularly large, heavy two-seaters. It's often more convenient that moving them by trailer.
From the tug pilot's point of view, 400' would be lots of clearance and I suspect he had probably seen you well in advance. Towing gliders, particularly near a busy gliding field, is very much a "look out of the cockpit" business.
Last edited by India Four Two; 10th Nov 2012 at 11:24.