Log taxi time?
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I would say that since you haven't actually flown, then your time hasn't started. The purposeof the flight (and taxying) was to go flying. Since you haven't flown you haven't achieved that purpose, ergo you can't claim it as flight time.
As I previously alluded, let's take it to ridiculous extremes: An imaginary pilot needs 15 hours experience for an imaginary rating. He gets into an aircraft 15 times during the course of a week and taxys around the airfield for an hour each time, without ever actually getting airborne (there's no need for any reason, he just says that the original purpose was to go flying). Do you think he is now qualified for that rating?
Let's ask ourselves why did the leglisators include the requirement for the first movement must be for the purpose of flight.
We can never really know what was in their minds, but it could well be that they did want to take account of the fact that the pilot is responsible for the aircraft during taxi and wanted that time to count, but didn't want to see a situation where engineers taxiing a B747 around the ramp (which they are quite entitled to do without a pilots licence) logging flight time.
If that was what was in their mind then the solution is simple. Make the taxi time only count if it was for the purpose of taking off. Then the engineer couldn't record the time but the pilot could.
If this was the case the leglisators did actually intend the taxi time to be recorded, and it's the pilots duties that is important and not the subsequent take off or abondoned flight.
But as I said earlier, because the leglisation as worded produces a nonsense answer we're left to guess whether the leglisators intended to record the time the pilot was in case for, or only do so if it actually took off. Those who think it allows this taxi time are equally as valid as those who think it shouldn't be as far as I'm concerned.
By the way, I've had one in the past, where I spent maybe 10 minutes taxiing around Dublin Airport, then after 45 minutes at the holding point waiting for a gap in the take off/landing queue I gave up and had a 5 minute taxi back to our parking spot. The intention to fly was real. I didn't record the time in my log book (even though I had to pay for the tach time.) But even still I think those who argue that it is recordable have an arguable case under the leglisation as drafted.
dp
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Pontius
Let me give you another possible scenario and lets make it a private jet
You start up have a filed flight plan, taxi out, run through all the checks, line up and start the takeoff roll!
Before V1 the door unlocked light illuminates and suspecting a contact problem but not sure you decide to abort the takeoff and clear the runway to inspect the door and baggage bays.
What do you do with that 25 mins of time record it or ignore it?
Do you consider the start of the takeoff as flight or only the point the wheels leave the runway?
On landing do you consider the landing roll as flight or only to the point that the aircraft Tires touch the runway?
As we are being pedantic lets be pedantic and remember the law is pedantic! Poorly defined in law means no prosecution.
It is not for the pilot to determine what he thinks the law meant to mean only what it says in black and white.
As the saying goes poor law is no law!
Pace
Let me give you another possible scenario and lets make it a private jet
You start up have a filed flight plan, taxi out, run through all the checks, line up and start the takeoff roll!
Before V1 the door unlocked light illuminates and suspecting a contact problem but not sure you decide to abort the takeoff and clear the runway to inspect the door and baggage bays.
What do you do with that 25 mins of time record it or ignore it?
Do you consider the start of the takeoff as flight or only the point the wheels leave the runway?
On landing do you consider the landing roll as flight or only to the point that the aircraft Tires touch the runway?
As we are being pedantic lets be pedantic and remember the law is pedantic! Poorly defined in law means no prosecution.
It is not for the pilot to determine what he thinks the law meant to mean only what it says in black and white.
As the saying goes poor law is no law!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 30th Oct 2012 at 12:47.
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I have been told you can log the time from the moment your taking out the chocks and taxing to the time you have finished to taxing after landing to your parking place. So basically you can log the taxi time. Many don't do it because they believe flight time mean from take-off until landing and they loose precious time.
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Okay, one last post from me on this matter because (a)I've already said what I believe and why and (b)because I'm acutely aware of hogging a thread where others may well have an informed opinion. I'm not running away but it does little to keep repeating the same message.
DublinPilot, I think you're being quite disingenuous and that detracts from your previous considered replies. You know full well what I'm trying to say; taxying around an airfield does not equal flying experience, whether required for an imaginary rating or any other matter requiring flying hours. I was trying to make the point that, by your reckoning, a person could log considerable hours without ever taking to the air. That's quite plainly daft and goes a long way to explaining why the regulators didn't think it necessary to state the obvious.
I have read the rest of your post but I don't think there's any engineer who thinks taxying time would count as flying time and, therefore, wouldn't ever cross their mind to try and log it as such.
Pace,
in terms of hours, I have ignored ground turn backs in the past and will continue to do so in the future. I know you said we were to consider a private jet but let's just say for the sake of argument that you were going to get paid for the block hours spent flying your passengers from A to B. Would you expect them to pay for that flight, considering they're still on the ground at A?
I consider it as when the wheels leave the runway and the aircraft flies. The rest I consider as driving (taxying by another name). I don't fly my car.
I consider landing as when the tyres touch the runway. The landing roll I consider as driving. In any case, the point of landing is irrelevant to the discussion, since the regulations define flight hours as continuing until 'block in', so it doesn't matter whether you're flying or driving after a flight.
I know that my logbook only includes hours that I've actually flown. By your liberal reading of the regulations to suit your own agenda I'm not convinced yours would do the same. It matters not that flying is expensive or flying hours hard to come by; padding your log book with flying hours when you haven't flown makes no sense whatsoever, no matter how you interpret the rules and I'm quite certain the Regulator would agree.
Nobody is qualified for any rating without taking a skills test. It's extremely unlikey that pilot would be able to pass any such test.
I have read the rest of your post but I don't think there's any engineer who thinks taxying time would count as flying time and, therefore, wouldn't ever cross their mind to try and log it as such.
Pace,
What do you do with that 25 mins of time record it or ignore it?
Do you consider the start of the takeoff as flight or only the point the wheels leave the runway?
On landing do you consider the landing roll as flight or only to the point that the aircraft Tires touch the runway?
It is not for the pilot to determine what he thinks the law meant to mean only what it says in black and white.
Last edited by Pontius; 30th Oct 2012 at 14:36.
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By the way the phrase "first moves for the purpose of taking off" is usually interperted as when it first taxis with the intension of taking flight, but it could of course be read differently.
"for the purpose of taking off" means I'm taxiing out with the full intent of taking off once I reach the runway. That intention may change due to a technical problem or weather or anything else, but that doesn't make the time any less loggable. So it can go into the logbook, although obviously with zero take-offs and landings. And you might want to write in the comments why the flight was aborted.
In my view the legislators wrote the phrase "for the purpose of taking off" to contrast it with "for the purpose of taxiing to the pumps/hangar/maintenance bay/sightseeing across the airfield/whatever", which clearly is not loggable.
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I know that my logbook only includes hours that I've actually flown. By your liberal reading of the regulations to suit your own agenda I'm not convinced yours would do the same. It matters not that flying is expensive or flying hours hard to come by; padding your log book with flying hours when you haven't flown makes no sense whatsoever, no matter how you interpret the rules and I'm quite certain the Regulator would agree
My hours are taken as brakes off to Brakes on which is the normal and have always been that way . I have never known a Civilian pilot record only takeoff to touchdown times.
What is in question and not clear is the intention to fly part and whether an aborted flight can be logged where there was an intention to fly or not.
Why you have to make insinuations about my own log book which you have no knowledge of beggars belief and is insulting.
Please also quote the law which makes you so certain that the regulator would agree with your interpretation?
Pace
Call me old fashion but I still think that you should have to do some actual "flying" before you get to count time in the aircraft as "flight time".
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Call me old fashion but I still think that you should have to do some actual "flying" before you get to count time in the aircraft as "flight time".
Way too expensive and dangerous to do real flying
Far better just to taxi up and down the taxiways sporting a pair of Raybans looking good for all the female admirers and pretending you intend to take off rather than actually doing it 
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 30th Oct 2012 at 17:12.
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If I FLEW, I log flight flight including taxi time.
If no flight, either run-up discrepancy, deteriorating WX, or even a rejected T/O, the time goes in the little red book, as that time legally counts toward duty day, week, monthly & yearly totals....
But with no flight, I don't log it in my permanent pilot logbook.
If no flight, either run-up discrepancy, deteriorating WX, or even a rejected T/O, the time goes in the little red book, as that time legally counts toward duty day, week, monthly & yearly totals....
But with no flight, I don't log it in my permanent pilot logbook.
Pace:
"My hours are taken as brakes off to brakes on which is the normal and have always been that way. I have never known a Civilian pilot record only take-off to touchdown times".
So what would you have recorded in the example that I gave of being stuck in the conga line at JFK for more than 3 hours? Surely you would not have recorded those hours as flying time?
Let's face it, when I took the park brake off having dismissed the tug, it was my intention to go flying. However, since there were 53 aircraft ahead of me, I took the park brake off another 53 times always with the intention to go flying but couldn't because there were multiple obstructions in front of me.
Now let us not confuse the various methods of recording time. The most important time to be recorded is when you are getting paid by the block hour. In that case there is no conflict. You record the time from initially moving the aircraft until you stop it.
However, is that what you put in your flying logbook? Would you really put 3 hours sitting in a queue down as flying time?
You also make a statement that you have never known a Civilian pilot to record only take-off to touchdown. I know lots of them but then I have perhaps been around for a while longer than you.
You might also be interested to know that when I was flying under FAA Part 121, the Flight Time Limitations were always measured in "time aloft" which was clearly defined as take-off to landing. Perhaps they still do?
None of which makes any difference to what individuals actually enter into their own flying log books. I suppose it boils down to whether you can keep a straight face at the subsequent board of enquiry and whether you can live with your conscience. How can any pilot log flying time when they don't actually go flying?
Duty time yes but flying time no.
Now I know you are dying to ask me what I put in my logbook when I got stuck in the conga line. The answer is easy; five minutes at either end.
"My hours are taken as brakes off to brakes on which is the normal and have always been that way. I have never known a Civilian pilot record only take-off to touchdown times".
So what would you have recorded in the example that I gave of being stuck in the conga line at JFK for more than 3 hours? Surely you would not have recorded those hours as flying time?
Let's face it, when I took the park brake off having dismissed the tug, it was my intention to go flying. However, since there were 53 aircraft ahead of me, I took the park brake off another 53 times always with the intention to go flying but couldn't because there were multiple obstructions in front of me.
Now let us not confuse the various methods of recording time. The most important time to be recorded is when you are getting paid by the block hour. In that case there is no conflict. You record the time from initially moving the aircraft until you stop it.
However, is that what you put in your flying logbook? Would you really put 3 hours sitting in a queue down as flying time?
You also make a statement that you have never known a Civilian pilot to record only take-off to touchdown. I know lots of them but then I have perhaps been around for a while longer than you.
You might also be interested to know that when I was flying under FAA Part 121, the Flight Time Limitations were always measured in "time aloft" which was clearly defined as take-off to landing. Perhaps they still do?
None of which makes any difference to what individuals actually enter into their own flying log books. I suppose it boils down to whether you can keep a straight face at the subsequent board of enquiry and whether you can live with your conscience. How can any pilot log flying time when they don't actually go flying?
Duty time yes but flying time no.
Now I know you are dying to ask me what I put in my logbook when I got stuck in the conga line. The answer is easy; five minutes at either end.
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JW411
I personally log brakes off to brakes on as you are piloting the aircraft whether taxiing or in the air.
I checked with some friends at EasyJet and they record engine start to chocks on so slightly more than brakes off to brakes on and that is perfectly acceptable to the CAA.
I also checked on a return technically its legal to record a return where there is a genuine intent to fly although most do not bother.
As for my pay its on a day rate flying private jets.
But I am told I am not recording enough!!! engine start to chocks on is the norm with jets so I cannot win
As for your three hour example I would not log that either.
Pace
I personally log brakes off to brakes on as you are piloting the aircraft whether taxiing or in the air.
I checked with some friends at EasyJet and they record engine start to chocks on so slightly more than brakes off to brakes on and that is perfectly acceptable to the CAA.
I also checked on a return technically its legal to record a return where there is a genuine intent to fly although most do not bother.
As for my pay its on a day rate flying private jets.
But I am told I am not recording enough!!! engine start to chocks on is the norm with jets so I cannot win
As for your three hour example I would not log that either.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 30th Oct 2012 at 22:37.
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Pious Pontios if you are so puritanical about logging non flying hours I hope you deduct autopilot time as you cannot be pinching George's time can you ?
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Absolutely
I think there is a problem here between duty time and company SOPs and for mere mortals like me where no-one cares if I fly or not,
The rules would seem to be quite clear that only time from brakes off to brakes on AFTER LANDING counts. I don't need the hours for a professional licence and, as long as I have the 12 hours in the second year I am only interested in airborne time + 5 minutes before take off + 5 minutes after touchdown
I'm happy that reflects my own (amateur) requirements. What others do is up to them.
I think there is a problem here between duty time and company SOPs and for mere mortals like me where no-one cares if I fly or not,
The rules would seem to be quite clear that only time from brakes off to brakes on AFTER LANDING counts. I don't need the hours for a professional licence and, as long as I have the 12 hours in the second year I am only interested in airborne time + 5 minutes before take off + 5 minutes after touchdown
I'm happy that reflects my own (amateur) requirements. What others do is up to them.
Last edited by robin; 30th Oct 2012 at 21:46.
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Bose
I only act like a troll towards someone who is rude or insulting to me! Nevertheless my comments to Pontius were childish retaliation so I have removed them.
Maybe you would remove the copied post containing those comments?
Pace
I only act like a troll towards someone who is rude or insulting to me! Nevertheless my comments to Pontius were childish retaliation so I have removed them.
Maybe you would remove the copied post containing those comments?
Pace
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Obviously, if you're caught in the 3hr conga line at JFK then even the most unscrupulous pilot would not record that time, I hope. I think most pilots are honest people. It's a personal honour to make sure you're not cooking the books. Personally, I have zero desire to work professionally as a pilot, so my time is irrelevant to anyone but myself - I have no incentive to boost flying time. But the logical way to log time is to envelope all elements of flying - that includes taxi for the purpose of flying and all the skills that entails.
Wanna bet FlightSafety and SimCom have a huge section on ground operations for a TR? If that's not "flying", then I hope we can omit that part of the course and save some money in the future. Just get the ground handlers to drive it out to the rwy and the real pilots will take it from there....
Wanna bet FlightSafety and SimCom have a huge section on ground operations for a TR? If that's not "flying", then I hope we can omit that part of the course and save some money in the future. Just get the ground handlers to drive it out to the rwy and the real pilots will take it from there....
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 31st Oct 2012 at 04:18.
Adam
That makes me unscrupulous -oh dear! I know the misery of a long taxy out at JFK. In my company the aircraft logs block time, push back to chocks on, and flight time. I really don't need the hours but I merely log the block time that goes in both the tech log and the flight report. I can't remember the exact definition in UK air law but isn't "flight time" something like what I have described above ie "from the time the aircraft moves under its own power for the purposes of flight until it comes to rest". Happy to stand corrected on the precise definition.
When I was in a flying club I believe most folks logged what they had been charged for. In an aircraft with a Hobbs meter that seemed to be broadly equivalent to taxy time. One club had a flight meter that activated on take off as its trigger was an airspeed of 30 kts-ish and here we were charged a flat rate airborne plus ten minutes. I liked that system as it didn't encourage anyone to taxy too fast or rush their checks.
The UK military, I believe, log airborne only and so I think they agreed with the UK CAA, as was(!), a correction factor to "civilianise" their hours.
BBK
That makes me unscrupulous -oh dear! I know the misery of a long taxy out at JFK. In my company the aircraft logs block time, push back to chocks on, and flight time. I really don't need the hours but I merely log the block time that goes in both the tech log and the flight report. I can't remember the exact definition in UK air law but isn't "flight time" something like what I have described above ie "from the time the aircraft moves under its own power for the purposes of flight until it comes to rest". Happy to stand corrected on the precise definition.
When I was in a flying club I believe most folks logged what they had been charged for. In an aircraft with a Hobbs meter that seemed to be broadly equivalent to taxy time. One club had a flight meter that activated on take off as its trigger was an airspeed of 30 kts-ish and here we were charged a flat rate airborne plus ten minutes. I liked that system as it didn't encourage anyone to taxy too fast or rush their checks.
The UK military, I believe, log airborne only and so I think they agreed with the UK CAA, as was(!), a correction factor to "civilianise" their hours.
BBK
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I can't believe I've just wasted 15 minutes of my life reading this thread. What is there to discuss (SOPs, company rules excepted)?
In the civvy world: brakes off (start logging time), taxy, take off, fly, land, taxy, brakes on (stop logging time).
If the reason the taxying was done was not to move the flying machine to a place where it safely could become airborne, and did become airborne, then it wasn't for the purpose of flight. (What's all this drivel about "intention"?)
IMHO, if one wants to log more flying time, then go spend some more money and do some more FLYING!!
In the civvy world: brakes off (start logging time), taxy, take off, fly, land, taxy, brakes on (stop logging time).
If the reason the taxying was done was not to move the flying machine to a place where it safely could become airborne, and did become airborne, then it wasn't for the purpose of flight. (What's all this drivel about "intention"?)
IMHO, if one wants to log more flying time, then go spend some more money and do some more FLYING!!
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I log blocks off to blocks on which as has been posted before at Aberdeen could mean 20 min added to your flight time where you are not actually airborne. The minute you move the wheels the aircraft is under your control.
Sitting at the hold waiting on heli's and commercial jets to arrive and possibly getting a tour of the airfield around various holds to get a slot all involve pilot skill. I would defintely count this towards any revalidation / rating time provided I actually got airborne.
Sitting at the hold waiting on heli's and commercial jets to arrive and possibly getting a tour of the airfield around various holds to get a slot all involve pilot skill. I would defintely count this towards any revalidation / rating time provided I actually got airborne.
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Hi, 'First moves for the purpose of taking off' must imply that the NOSE OF THE AIRCRAFT IS IN LINE WITH THE RUNWAY DIRECTION.
If you push the power levers forward whilst still on the taxiway you are not intending to take-off!
The other anomoly is that on some airstrips you can land and stop at the pumps, all within 30 seconds. So how does that equate with adding 5 minutes taxi time, before and after flight?
If you push the power levers forward whilst still on the taxiway you are not intending to take-off!
The other anomoly is that on some airstrips you can land and stop at the pumps, all within 30 seconds. So how does that equate with adding 5 minutes taxi time, before and after flight?
Last edited by phiggsbroadband; 30th Jan 2013 at 14:29.