When to start turning from base leg to final?
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When to start turning from base leg to final?
I am an aircraft maintenance engineer(Avionics) and as a hobbiest I am a serious flight simmer. I would like to know exactly when I should start the turn from base leg to final so that I can line up comfortably?
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Base to Final Turn.
No wind condition. I am thinking of basic airplanes such as Cessna 172SP(in FSX), flaps 10, 80 Kts, bank angle 20 degrees.
Last edited by Haseen; 9th Oct 2012 at 05:07.
oops!? my bad!
That must be a typical flightsimmers question - I've always been poor at guessing and estimating positions and distances, but never had trouble with turning into final.
That must be a typical flightsimmers question - I've always been poor at guessing and estimating positions and distances, but never had trouble with turning into final.
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Whatever is required to fit in with other circuit traffic. Might be over the threshold or even a bit down the runway, most common is about half to a full mile final, might be more if required.
Sometimes it's no problem to overshoot the centerline a bit, or even desired. Sometimes it's a big no-no because of other traffic flying an opposite circuit to the same or a parallel runway.
What's probably also important to consider is the altitude you're at when turning final. On a one-mile final, being at 700 feet is slightly high but still perfectly doable. Fly a threshold base at 700 feet and you can generally start planning on a go-around.
Sometimes it's no problem to overshoot the centerline a bit, or even desired. Sometimes it's a big no-no because of other traffic flying an opposite circuit to the same or a parallel runway.
What's probably also important to consider is the altitude you're at when turning final. On a one-mile final, being at 700 feet is slightly high but still perfectly doable. Fly a threshold base at 700 feet and you can generally start planning on a go-around.
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It depends on your rate of turn or turning speed and/or altitude. It's one of those visual images you have to re-learn with every new aircraft. But In my aircraft (about 100-115kts on base), it's about when I can see the field between 11 and 10 o'clock. Sometimes, when I'm a little high, I keep the speed up and turn tighter to lose some altitude.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 9th Oct 2012 at 06:39.
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You can't see the runway on the screen of a flite sim when you are on base - hence the question I guess. So there is no answer based on real aircraft practice that will work. Sorry.
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Best advice I ever heard for landing, and I've used it quite successfully in flight simulation as well....
pick a spot on the ground about 1/2 mile away (880 yards, ~800 meters), you want to be 400 feet (122 meters) above the runway elevation over that spot, pointing at the end of the runway to begin your final approach. That will give you an almost perfect glide slope, and sufficient time to stabilize your approach. (in practice, since it's hard to estimate distances without a reference, many small airports have a runway that's 800 meters, so you just use that length off the end of the runway, if your airports runway is 1600 meters, use half the distance, etc.)
Once you've picked that spot, you continue downwind until you've just passed that spot, then turn to base. You now have gone past the spot by about as much as you will get back when you turn to final. (look out the side window, when you pass it, turn)
Now, you just aim for that spot when you turn final, INSTEAD of looking at the runway. AND try to have your altitude be 400 feet (122 meters) above the runway elevation when you pass over it. Knowing when to turn to cross over the spot will take a bit of practice, especially in a simulator, because it varies depending on aircraft speed, turn rate (do not exceed 30 degrees in the pattern/circuit), wind direction and wind speed. But you can guess based on how long it took you to turn from downwind to base.
You are now set up for a final approach that should be stable. You have plenty of time to adjust your throttle (sink rate) and rudder/ailerons (runway alignment).
Next best bit of advice...
if you miss this spot, or miss the altitude by more than about 30 feet (10 meters), go around now, it's not worth trying to make it work for 2 reasons.
1) it's much easier if you have a stabilized approach starting 1/2 mile out (800 meters)
2) you are establishing two habits, first the approach habit, make it as clean as possible, and second the go-around habit, be prepared to go-around on every landing, and be prepared to go-around at the first sign of trouble
Later on, after you know what a good, solid, stabilized approach looks and feels like, you can try shortening or lengthening the approach.
pick a spot on the ground about 1/2 mile away (880 yards, ~800 meters), you want to be 400 feet (122 meters) above the runway elevation over that spot, pointing at the end of the runway to begin your final approach. That will give you an almost perfect glide slope, and sufficient time to stabilize your approach. (in practice, since it's hard to estimate distances without a reference, many small airports have a runway that's 800 meters, so you just use that length off the end of the runway, if your airports runway is 1600 meters, use half the distance, etc.)
Once you've picked that spot, you continue downwind until you've just passed that spot, then turn to base. You now have gone past the spot by about as much as you will get back when you turn to final. (look out the side window, when you pass it, turn)
Now, you just aim for that spot when you turn final, INSTEAD of looking at the runway. AND try to have your altitude be 400 feet (122 meters) above the runway elevation when you pass over it. Knowing when to turn to cross over the spot will take a bit of practice, especially in a simulator, because it varies depending on aircraft speed, turn rate (do not exceed 30 degrees in the pattern/circuit), wind direction and wind speed. But you can guess based on how long it took you to turn from downwind to base.
You are now set up for a final approach that should be stable. You have plenty of time to adjust your throttle (sink rate) and rudder/ailerons (runway alignment).
Next best bit of advice...
if you miss this spot, or miss the altitude by more than about 30 feet (10 meters), go around now, it's not worth trying to make it work for 2 reasons.
1) it's much easier if you have a stabilized approach starting 1/2 mile out (800 meters)
2) you are establishing two habits, first the approach habit, make it as clean as possible, and second the go-around habit, be prepared to go-around on every landing, and be prepared to go-around at the first sign of trouble
Later on, after you know what a good, solid, stabilized approach looks and feels like, you can try shortening or lengthening the approach.
Last edited by darkroomsource; 9th Oct 2012 at 08:01.
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Just to be clear,
the method I've described improved my landings immensely in real planes.
It works extremely well in flight simulators as well.
When flying larger planes, I have to change the distance and altitude (real and sim), for example in a C-152, 400' and 1/2 mile is almost too far away, in a Maule, it's definitely too far away, in a C-182 it's perfect, in a C-208 it's doable, but 1 mile and 800' is better, in a C-310 3/4 mile and 500' seems to be best.
Other heights and distances are workable, but that depends on experience in type and general experience.
the method I've described improved my landings immensely in real planes.
It works extremely well in flight simulators as well.
When flying larger planes, I have to change the distance and altitude (real and sim), for example in a C-152, 400' and 1/2 mile is almost too far away, in a Maule, it's definitely too far away, in a C-182 it's perfect, in a C-208 it's doable, but 1 mile and 800' is better, in a C-310 3/4 mile and 500' seems to be best.
Other heights and distances are workable, but that depends on experience in type and general experience.
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The trouble with MSFS is that it's not easy to see the runway when on base, unless you have multi screens (or a super fast PC that you can quickly change the view).
In the real world you just keep an eye on the runway and start your turn when you think you'll have completed a 90 degree turn when exactly in line with the runway. In MSFS, it takes a lot of changing views to get that.
In the real world you just keep an eye on the runway and start your turn when you think you'll have completed a 90 degree turn when exactly in line with the runway. In MSFS, it takes a lot of changing views to get that.
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Anybody remember the Monty Python "4 men from Yorkshire" sketch???
pick a spot on the ground about 1/2 mile away (880 yards, ~800 meters), you want to be 400 feet (122 meters) above the runway elevation over that spot, pointing at the end of the runway to begin your final approach. That will give you an almost perfect glide slope, and sufficient time to stabilize your approach. (in practice, since it's hard to estimate distances without a reference, many small airports have a runway that's 800 meters, so you just use that length off the end of the runway, if your airports runway is 1600 meters, use half the distance, etc.)
Just joking, so back to reality - fortunately in Germany we have AIPs which have the circuit indicated clearly to ensure noise abatement is adhered to.... Just have to have your iPad / iPhone / Android running Air Nav Pro or similar, you can then easily see when you are expected to turn from downwind to base and base to final.......
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Crikey, it varies! At Manchester I've flown a base to final turn halfway down the runway (to land down by the fantail which dates the time I flew based aeroplanes from there).
At Barton, anything from half a mile out (only ever more than that if I was stuck behind someone flying a bomber circuit - not rare at Barton) to turning final over the fence (the Yak 52 liked that!).
At Liverpool in the Chipmunk I always kept the final very short so ATC had no problems fitting me in between the Airbusses etc (and I flew 120 knots clean to close-in base, then power off and slow down to VFE speeds lowering flap as those speeds were reached and turning final, then establishing fully stabilised at 60 knots on a short final).
There are other circumstances where different length finals apply.
At Barton, anything from half a mile out (only ever more than that if I was stuck behind someone flying a bomber circuit - not rare at Barton) to turning final over the fence (the Yak 52 liked that!).
At Liverpool in the Chipmunk I always kept the final very short so ATC had no problems fitting me in between the Airbusses etc (and I flew 120 knots clean to close-in base, then power off and slow down to VFE speeds lowering flap as those speeds were reached and turning final, then establishing fully stabilised at 60 knots on a short final).
There are other circumstances where different length finals apply.
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Is it just me that does it when it looks about right?
And you're allowed to screw it up the first time, it's the second circuit, when you've already seen what the wind is doing once, that you're supposed to get it right.
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Hi Haseen, if your joystick has a 'hat' control it can be configured to give a look out of the side windows. If you just have the front view then you need to keep the end of the runway in the side of the view. The circuit needs to be flown at 1000ft. decreasing to 600ft at the base/final turn (at say 1/2 mile out.) Do you watch the PAPIs on Final? They are at the 3deg glide-slope.
Pete
Pete