Unfamiliar Airport Entry pattern
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What I've done in the USA is overfly the airport at safe altitude, look down and check the windsock, then continue to fly outbound until clear of the cct, decend and turn, joining on the 45.
Can someone tell me what a LEFT STANDARD DEPARTURE is, if someone gives it to you in the USA?
Can someone tell me what a LEFT STANDARD DEPARTURE is, if someone gives it to you in the USA?
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at the start of the computer revolution it was considered COOL to not use caps for the reason that it slowed typing down
Typing capitals does not slow you down if you are a professionally trained touch typist - what do they teach in schools these days?
(OK OK so I'm of an age when boys didn't get taught typing, but I do rather hope that rules like that are no longer legal.)
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Well done
Sevenstrokeroll, well done for posting.
First thing to know for anyone offering advise on Pprune, is to ignore half of the feedback you get. There are quite a few people on here that use every opportunity to swing at Americans, Cirrus pilots, ATC....or anyone who are not themselves.
I have offered other people advise on the Overhead Join, which is important to know when flying inthe UK, but unknown in other parts of Europe.
Yes, the join is very similar to the UK overhead join, but there are some important differences and you avoid two important concerns I always have
1) Decending on top of someone who deemed the windsock to favour the opposite runway
2) A Pitts (or similar) at full chat, climbing to circuit hight midfield where I'd be crossing
In what was described, you are also a little higher over the airfield to avoid wire launched gliders - I would imagine 2500 vs 1000 ft makes a difference.
Lastly, for those indicating that this is only useful for "dumb" Americans who can't plan appropriately. When venturing outside the 3 airfields you were shown during training, you might at some point need to land at a different airfield than planned - either for poor weather, taking advantage of unexpected tailwind or a passanger getting sick. The planning and PPR you did from home is out the window, and you need to resort to the standard join. Standard is in some countries overhead, in some it is 90 degrees to downwind from the live side....and in some it is 45 degree.
Long story short, I'll be very likely to bring the above diagram with me if and when I go VFR flying in the States. Very helpful.
First thing to know for anyone offering advise on Pprune, is to ignore half of the feedback you get. There are quite a few people on here that use every opportunity to swing at Americans, Cirrus pilots, ATC....or anyone who are not themselves.
I have offered other people advise on the Overhead Join, which is important to know when flying inthe UK, but unknown in other parts of Europe.
Yes, the join is very similar to the UK overhead join, but there are some important differences and you avoid two important concerns I always have
1) Decending on top of someone who deemed the windsock to favour the opposite runway
2) A Pitts (or similar) at full chat, climbing to circuit hight midfield where I'd be crossing
In what was described, you are also a little higher over the airfield to avoid wire launched gliders - I would imagine 2500 vs 1000 ft makes a difference.
Lastly, for those indicating that this is only useful for "dumb" Americans who can't plan appropriately. When venturing outside the 3 airfields you were shown during training, you might at some point need to land at a different airfield than planned - either for poor weather, taking advantage of unexpected tailwind or a passanger getting sick. The planning and PPR you did from home is out the window, and you need to resort to the standard join. Standard is in some countries overhead, in some it is 90 degrees to downwind from the live side....and in some it is 45 degree.
Long story short, I'll be very likely to bring the above diagram with me if and when I go VFR flying in the States. Very helpful.
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I think the OP makes a very good observation about UK pilots not being familiar with US proceedures. I can endorse this from personal experience: I'd been flying quite a bit in the US before I found out what a 45 deg join was!
Checking out at, and flying between, controlled fields it never really came up and the instructors who checked me out and did my BFR's probably never imagined that there were places where they don't use the 45 deg join! In those pre-internet days it was hard to pick this stuff up unless you stumbled across it in a cover to cover read of FAR/AIM.
I eventually found out what a '45' was when a class 'D' controller told me to make one, and when I didn't, yelled at me!
Later, when I did a stand alone FAA Private, I found out a few other details that had mystified me during those years of flying on the reciprocal licence!
Checking out at, and flying between, controlled fields it never really came up and the instructors who checked me out and did my BFR's probably never imagined that there were places where they don't use the 45 deg join! In those pre-internet days it was hard to pick this stuff up unless you stumbled across it in a cover to cover read of FAR/AIM.
I eventually found out what a '45' was when a class 'D' controller told me to make one, and when I didn't, yelled at me!
Later, when I did a stand alone FAA Private, I found out a few other details that had mystified me during those years of flying on the reciprocal licence!
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you might at some point need to land at a different airfield than planned - either for poor weather, taking advantage of unexpected tailwind or a passanger getting sick. The planning and PPR you did from home is out the window, and you need to resort to the standard join
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In drawing it out, I see you go upwind on the downwind side of the runway (albeit wide of the pattern).
You are also turning right twice (onto the runway heading when wide of the pattern, then 135deg to the right to make the 45 deg join) when its a left circuit.
If someone decides / requires to orbit downwind, they could come in conflict with you when going at runway heading.
How would you normally get to the entry of the 45 deg join, say from the South in your example? Is it normal to go upwind on the downwind side of the runway? If so, again someone could be underneath you.
To ensure you are beyond the pattern, your track miles will be longer than the OH join or the other pattern which I linked to.
To go beyond the pattern you are likely to leave the ATZ (I don't know whether thats an issue in the states. You will also be outside gliding range of the airfield.
Can you confirm that this is a home-brewed joining pattern rather than an FAA standard (I couldn't find a reference to it)? Is there a standard way to get from overhead to join the circuit in USA?
You say this isn't transitioning into the pattern yet you seem to start in the same place (overhead 1000ft above pattern altitude) and end up in the same place (45deg join). Are they not just different ways to achieve the same thing? (Yes I can see other problems in the article I linked to).
Is it not the case that there are problems and risks with every way of joining a circuit? You just need to understand and mitigate against them?
You are also turning right twice (onto the runway heading when wide of the pattern, then 135deg to the right to make the 45 deg join) when its a left circuit.
If someone decides / requires to orbit downwind, they could come in conflict with you when going at runway heading.
How would you normally get to the entry of the 45 deg join, say from the South in your example? Is it normal to go upwind on the downwind side of the runway? If so, again someone could be underneath you.
To ensure you are beyond the pattern, your track miles will be longer than the OH join or the other pattern which I linked to.
To go beyond the pattern you are likely to leave the ATZ (I don't know whether thats an issue in the states. You will also be outside gliding range of the airfield.
Can you confirm that this is a home-brewed joining pattern rather than an FAA standard (I couldn't find a reference to it)? Is there a standard way to get from overhead to join the circuit in USA?
You say this isn't transitioning into the pattern yet you seem to start in the same place (overhead 1000ft above pattern altitude) and end up in the same place (45deg join). Are they not just different ways to achieve the same thing? (Yes I can see other problems in the article I linked to).
Is it not the case that there are problems and risks with every way of joining a circuit? You just need to understand and mitigate against them?
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Interesting thread.
Not too many uncontrolled airfields in UK... most have at least air/ground radio.
IME when a ground station is not operating (at weekends on some fields) pilots use the published frequency to brief each other. Those in the circuit listening out and passing r/w & wx info to those arriving. The French have more uncontrolled fields and have long used their unicom/safetycom of 123.5 in a similar way. (prefixing calls with " ---- airfield traffic" to avoid confusion)
Pity we don't seem to make the same proper use of our safetycom in the UK.
As for those idiots who continue to fly in UK without radio
Not too many uncontrolled airfields in UK... most have at least air/ground radio.
IME when a ground station is not operating (at weekends on some fields) pilots use the published frequency to brief each other. Those in the circuit listening out and passing r/w & wx info to those arriving. The French have more uncontrolled fields and have long used their unicom/safetycom of 123.5 in a similar way. (prefixing calls with " ---- airfield traffic" to avoid confusion)
Pity we don't seem to make the same proper use of our safetycom in the UK.
As for those idiots who continue to fly in UK without radio
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USA LEFT STANDARD DEPARTURE
to the asker: a left standard departure means TAKEOFF, leave the airport boundry (runway)/fence and turn left 45 degrees...proceed on that heading till clear of airport area and then go on your merry way.
funny..no one has mentioned the purpose of the light on the windsock mast...hmmmm
funny..no one has mentioned the purpose of the light on the windsock mast...hmmmm
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GLAD to see people taking an interest in this
I'll try to address some of the issues.
also if someone would EMAIL me I can EMAIL them the diagram and perhaps they can figure out how to post it. so my email is [email protected].
ONE...engine failure scenario. I grew up (flying wise) with a little airport on san francisco bay shore. so if approaching from half of the sky, I would be in the bay if the engine quit. the other half of the sky was very densely populated and a rotten place to land too. there was a golf course nearby that could be used...BUT, and I don't say this lightly, someday you will just have to trust that you and your engine will be doing just fine. Lindbergh's engine worked really well and that was 85 years ago. if you are truly worried about engine failures (always have a plan to be sure) then takeoff, spiral up, circle the field and spiral down...and don't ever go more than a couple of miles from your home airport.
----
Radio...this procedure will work at an airport with a tower, unicom or ctaf or multicom. as someone said...the USA has many tower controlled airports....but litterally thousands of non controlled airports...sometimes someone will give you the wind and runway via unicom or sometimes not. its still up to YOU to act as PIC and determine the right way to approach and land.
--
someone mentioned the idea that if someone were 'orbiting' on the downwind that the procedure outlined might prove a problem. Well, you make radio calls and state position and intention...and you can certainly listen to someone who reports ORBITING on downwind...or doing a left 360 as we might say here where the airplane was invented. AND SINCE YOU HAVE FLOWN OVER THE AREA, above pattern altitude (both piston and turbine) you might have actually SEEN someone orbiting or additional traffic. And you could extend your flight path to even avoid circling traffic.
--
someone asked in this example how one would get to the downwind if approaching from the south...the beauty of this procedure is you approach the airfield from any direction and check out, reconiter, look around from an altitude where you are NOT IN THE WAY of other traffic in the pattern (circuit). You would still want to enter on a 45 degree angle to the midfield on the downwind...and in this example the downwind is west of the field.
someone asked if this was a home brewed procedure. it is not an FAA requirement to do the overhead stuff...but joining the pattern on a 45 degree angle is very standard. if you join on base leg, you are asking for trouble...
?...welll let's say someone didn't know that left traffic was the order of the day and was joining on right base to your left base...COLLISION on base! but since you were smart and overflew the field and confirmed left traffic by the traffic pattern indicators, you are doing the right/correct thing.
I learned this procedure in 1975...the man who taught it to me was the same guy who examined me for all my certificates (except atp). HE TAUGHT B17 pilots during WW2, and has spent more time listening to the ATIS than most of you guys have flying!
someone posted a diagram(not mine) called: transitioning to the pattern...I disagree with that procedure and it lends itself to collision.
mmgreve...thanks for the words.
also if someone would EMAIL me I can EMAIL them the diagram and perhaps they can figure out how to post it. so my email is [email protected].
ONE...engine failure scenario. I grew up (flying wise) with a little airport on san francisco bay shore. so if approaching from half of the sky, I would be in the bay if the engine quit. the other half of the sky was very densely populated and a rotten place to land too. there was a golf course nearby that could be used...BUT, and I don't say this lightly, someday you will just have to trust that you and your engine will be doing just fine. Lindbergh's engine worked really well and that was 85 years ago. if you are truly worried about engine failures (always have a plan to be sure) then takeoff, spiral up, circle the field and spiral down...and don't ever go more than a couple of miles from your home airport.
----
Radio...this procedure will work at an airport with a tower, unicom or ctaf or multicom. as someone said...the USA has many tower controlled airports....but litterally thousands of non controlled airports...sometimes someone will give you the wind and runway via unicom or sometimes not. its still up to YOU to act as PIC and determine the right way to approach and land.
--
someone mentioned the idea that if someone were 'orbiting' on the downwind that the procedure outlined might prove a problem. Well, you make radio calls and state position and intention...and you can certainly listen to someone who reports ORBITING on downwind...or doing a left 360 as we might say here where the airplane was invented. AND SINCE YOU HAVE FLOWN OVER THE AREA, above pattern altitude (both piston and turbine) you might have actually SEEN someone orbiting or additional traffic. And you could extend your flight path to even avoid circling traffic.
--
someone asked in this example how one would get to the downwind if approaching from the south...the beauty of this procedure is you approach the airfield from any direction and check out, reconiter, look around from an altitude where you are NOT IN THE WAY of other traffic in the pattern (circuit). You would still want to enter on a 45 degree angle to the midfield on the downwind...and in this example the downwind is west of the field.
someone asked if this was a home brewed procedure. it is not an FAA requirement to do the overhead stuff...but joining the pattern on a 45 degree angle is very standard. if you join on base leg, you are asking for trouble...
?...welll let's say someone didn't know that left traffic was the order of the day and was joining on right base to your left base...COLLISION on base! but since you were smart and overflew the field and confirmed left traffic by the traffic pattern indicators, you are doing the right/correct thing.
I learned this procedure in 1975...the man who taught it to me was the same guy who examined me for all my certificates (except atp). HE TAUGHT B17 pilots during WW2, and has spent more time listening to the ATIS than most of you guys have flying!
someone posted a diagram(not mine) called: transitioning to the pattern...I disagree with that procedure and it lends itself to collision.
mmgreve...thanks for the words.
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my email wouldn't show on the above post...so either send me a private message or
think carefully now
my e mail is
JONDC9 AT AMERICA ONLINE DOT COM
think carefully now
my e mail is
JONDC9 AT AMERICA ONLINE DOT COM
