Motorgliding - BGA or CAA directly controlled maintenance and instructors?
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Yes, but it hadn't flown for 10 years. Have a BGA ARC in the bank, but it's taking a while for the work to be done. When finished it will have a EASA CofA
SS
SS
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Prop swinger
“you will see that they are EASA aircraft & are maintained in accordance with Part-M. They are not permit aircraft.”
Are you saying that all motor gliders are EASA aircraft? What about the LAA fleet?
Rod1
“you will see that they are EASA aircraft & are maintained in accordance with Part-M. They are not permit aircraft.”
Are you saying that all motor gliders are EASA aircraft? What about the LAA fleet?
Rod1
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There are few if any non-EASA motor gliders (i.e. TMGs) because they do not fit the Annex II historic aircraft criteria (pre 1955 / 1975) or amateur-built criteria. Therefore they require an EASA C of A.
What LAA flight are you referring to as regards motor gliders? If you are thinking of microlight aeroplanes (2 seat < 450kg MTOM or single-seat < 300kg MTOM) that look and operate very much like conventional self-launching gliders ("SMLGs" not TMGs) then they are Annex II microlight aeroplanes.
What LAA flight are you referring to as regards motor gliders? If you are thinking of microlight aeroplanes (2 seat < 450kg MTOM or single-seat < 300kg MTOM) that look and operate very much like conventional self-launching gliders ("SMLGs" not TMGs) then they are Annex II microlight aeroplanes.
If we look at the Falke as an example, a quick search on G-Info shows a mixture of EASA CofA and Permit aircraft.
The vast majority of the non permit Falkes seem to be controlled on the BGA CAMO with ARC's issued by the BGA. Its a simple observation that some of these are used to provide ab-initio instruction in a seemingly commercial enviroment. Back to my previous question, is work on these completed by CAA licensed engineers? Or controlled and authorised by BGA Inspectors?
I had a PM last night which discusses the work on engine's in several of these by a non licence motor engineer, using parts for the car industry which were then released to service by a BGA Inspector. If this is true, then surely its not a level playing field.
The vast majority of the non permit Falkes seem to be controlled on the BGA CAMO with ARC's issued by the BGA. Its a simple observation that some of these are used to provide ab-initio instruction in a seemingly commercial enviroment. Back to my previous question, is work on these completed by CAA licensed engineers? Or controlled and authorised by BGA Inspectors?
I had a PM last night which discusses the work on engine's in several of these by a non licence motor engineer, using parts for the car industry which were then released to service by a BGA Inspector. If this is true, then surely its not a level playing field.
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LAA TMG off the top of my head without looking it up;
RF3
RF4
RF5
???7 (not sure)
Motor Tutor
Europa with the glider wings
Probably many more I have not thought of...
Rod1
RF3
RF4
RF5
???7 (not sure)
Motor Tutor
Europa with the glider wings
Probably many more I have not thought of...
Rod1
Last edited by Rod1; 6th Oct 2012 at 07:31.
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If we look at the Falke as an example, a quick search on G-Info shows a mixture of EASA CofA and Permit aircraft.
As pretty mush all motorglider TMG training over here is done in Falkes or Grobs ... then I'm not sure that the idea that training is done on Permit TMG's stands?
SS
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The EU engineer licensing regulations for aircraft being talked about are still in transition. See the NPA published by EASA 4 October on B2L and L licences:
EASA - Notices of Proposed Amendment (NPAs)
The previous EASA Opinion on this proposal (Opinion 2009-04) was rejected by the EASA Committee (comitology process) in 2010 as 'requiring simplification' (that makes a change!). This new NPA is EASA's response.
Until these new proposals become law, extant national arrangements on engineers remain in place, including those in the 'BGA fleet' including TMGs.
At least that's my understanding.
As regards TMG training, prior to the new EU ATO regulation coming into practical effect, again national extant arrangements remain in place including those within the orbit of the BGA, approved by the CAA. These are not 'commercial', being conducted through specified (non profit making) clubs.
E&OE
EASA - Notices of Proposed Amendment (NPAs)
The previous EASA Opinion on this proposal (Opinion 2009-04) was rejected by the EASA Committee (comitology process) in 2010 as 'requiring simplification' (that makes a change!). This new NPA is EASA's response.
Until these new proposals become law, extant national arrangements on engineers remain in place, including those in the 'BGA fleet' including TMGs.
At least that's my understanding.
As regards TMG training, prior to the new EU ATO regulation coming into practical effect, again national extant arrangements remain in place including those within the orbit of the BGA, approved by the CAA. These are not 'commercial', being conducted through specified (non profit making) clubs.
E&OE
Sorry about that Rod1, a bit of a sweeping generalisation but I was intending to refer to the 2 seaters used for training.
I do find it hard to think of the T31M as a motorglider.
I do find it hard to think of the T31M as a motorglider.
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@aircraft
I believe the latter "signed off by a BGA inspector".
If the aircraft is on a BGA ARC does the work have to be done by CAA licensed engineers or just signed off by a BGA inspector?
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I do find it hard to think of the T31M as a motorglider
SS
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This is a message I have received;
Had a reply from the CAA- the person I have been speaking to is the surveyor who looks after the BGA. It would appear to be much confusion over the subject and there was a meeting with the BGA last week on this amongst other subjects. I have also spoken at length to Flight Crew Licencing.
The magic phrase would appear to be " for the initial issue, renewal or revalidation of a Flight Crew Licence". If the flying is for this purpose then
a) A Venture motorglider CANNOT be used. Whilst it does have an EASA C of A- the engine is a Rollason engine and is NOT type certified. A SF25 Falke however has a Limbach engine which is Type certified and CAN be used for training for the initial issue, renewal or revalidation of a licence. ( this is provided the engine is within hours)
b) Any motorglider which has an engine which is ON CONDITION ( ie subject to GR24) CANNOT be used for the initial issue, renewal or revalidation of an EASA or JAR FCL OR AN NPPL licence. Aircraft with engines on condition can however be used for PRIVATE use only.
c) The BGA acts as a CAMO in the same way as any maintenance organisation does. The BGA inspector acts as a stamp/ inspector for the BGA.
d) A motorglider OWNED as a syndicate could however be used for training, even if it is on extension. The CAA however state there must be no more than 20 members/ part owners. This therefore would exclude any BGA club from owning and operating a motorglider as a club for the purposes of initial issue etc of a a FCL. The student must own an equity share and CAA registration must be informed of the owners.
e) The exception to all the above is the NPPL which can be done by a BGA instructor at a BGA club. However it should be noted that any hours done at a BGA club with a BGA instructor towards a NPPL will NOT count towards a EASA or JAR FCL., unless the club is either a Registered Training Facility or an Approved Training Organisation and the aircraft is a type certified aircraft and the training is carried out with an instructor holding either a CAA, JAA or EASA Commercial pilots licence with the appropriate instructors rating. Your solo hours will however count.
f) All training for an EASA licence will need to be carried out at an Approved Training Organisation (ATO) if it is for the initial issue etc of a Flight Crew Licence.
g) Any person that is carrying out flight crew training and receiving remuneration for it, whether directly or indirectly must hold a commercial pilots licence with the appropriate instructors rating.
Had a reply from the CAA- the person I have been speaking to is the surveyor who looks after the BGA. It would appear to be much confusion over the subject and there was a meeting with the BGA last week on this amongst other subjects. I have also spoken at length to Flight Crew Licencing.
The magic phrase would appear to be " for the initial issue, renewal or revalidation of a Flight Crew Licence". If the flying is for this purpose then
a) A Venture motorglider CANNOT be used. Whilst it does have an EASA C of A- the engine is a Rollason engine and is NOT type certified. A SF25 Falke however has a Limbach engine which is Type certified and CAN be used for training for the initial issue, renewal or revalidation of a licence. ( this is provided the engine is within hours)
b) Any motorglider which has an engine which is ON CONDITION ( ie subject to GR24) CANNOT be used for the initial issue, renewal or revalidation of an EASA or JAR FCL OR AN NPPL licence. Aircraft with engines on condition can however be used for PRIVATE use only.
c) The BGA acts as a CAMO in the same way as any maintenance organisation does. The BGA inspector acts as a stamp/ inspector for the BGA.
d) A motorglider OWNED as a syndicate could however be used for training, even if it is on extension. The CAA however state there must be no more than 20 members/ part owners. This therefore would exclude any BGA club from owning and operating a motorglider as a club for the purposes of initial issue etc of a a FCL. The student must own an equity share and CAA registration must be informed of the owners.
e) The exception to all the above is the NPPL which can be done by a BGA instructor at a BGA club. However it should be noted that any hours done at a BGA club with a BGA instructor towards a NPPL will NOT count towards a EASA or JAR FCL., unless the club is either a Registered Training Facility or an Approved Training Organisation and the aircraft is a type certified aircraft and the training is carried out with an instructor holding either a CAA, JAA or EASA Commercial pilots licence with the appropriate instructors rating. Your solo hours will however count.
f) All training for an EASA licence will need to be carried out at an Approved Training Organisation (ATO) if it is for the initial issue etc of a Flight Crew Licence.
g) Any person that is carrying out flight crew training and receiving remuneration for it, whether directly or indirectly must hold a commercial pilots licence with the appropriate instructors rating.
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Does the Stamo have a type certificate for the engine. It would follow that if it does then it could be used?
Im sorry if I am no help here but I really dont know.
Im sorry if I am no help here but I really dont know.
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Not sure where you are getting your information from or where your CAA-person is getting it from....
But I don't think the above is correct....IMHO you can't teach NPPL (SLMG) if you are only a BGA instructor. (if you could then, alot of BGA clubs would be doing it)...
it has already been stated in this thread!
Prehaps you could show us where "online" that is stated?
e) The exception to all the above is the NPPL which can be done by a BGA instructor at a BGA club. However it should be noted that any hours done at a BGA club with a BGA instructor towards a NPPL will NOT count towards a EASA or JAR FCL., unless the club is either a Registered Training Facility or an Approved Training Organisation and the aircraft is a type certified aircraft and the training is carried out with an instructor holding either a CAA, JAA or EASA Commercial pilots licence with the appropriate instructors rating. Your solo hours will however count.
it has already been stated in this thread!
Prehaps you could show us where "online" that is stated?
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I agree with you. I think it needs to be a BGA instructor with a motorgliding rating. I understand there are two types- restricted and unrestricted motorglider instructors. Restricted can teach for GLIDING exercises only- ie field landing checks and nav excercises for gliding purposes and NOT for an NPPL etc. And that from what I read is what the above says. You CAN teach NPPL as a BGA instructor, BUT those hours wouldnt count towards an EASA or JAR PPL. The problem I have is that I go abroad often and want a licence that will be recognised in other countries, and then want to get a "proper" aeroplane like a Cub or Auster. Im told that some countries dont recognise the NPPL?
From what I read for the JAR or EASA TMG PPL this instruction would however have to be carried out in an aircraft that is type certified-( whether it has a EASA C of A or not seems to a red herring- ie I am told you used to be able to train for a PPL on a Condor which had a full C of A, but you cant anymore because they are not supported, so the motorgliders Im looking to train in must be type certfied ie a falke, Dimona, Super Dimona, Grob, etc etc which to be fair is the aircraft the vast majority of gliding clubs have and the engine would have to be within hours.
From what I read for the JAR or EASA TMG PPL this instruction would however have to be carried out in an aircraft that is type certified-( whether it has a EASA C of A or not seems to a red herring- ie I am told you used to be able to train for a PPL on a Condor which had a full C of A, but you cant anymore because they are not supported, so the motorgliders Im looking to train in must be type certfied ie a falke, Dimona, Super Dimona, Grob, etc etc which to be fair is the aircraft the vast majority of gliding clubs have and the engine would have to be within hours.
Last edited by soaringsilently; 8th Oct 2012 at 13:01.
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And that from what I read is what the above says. You CAN teach NPPL as a BGA instructor
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soaringsilently, I think you need to read BGA Laws & Rules (Ed. 17) from page 39 onwards, that details the privileges of the BGA MGIR and CAA FI(SLMG).
If what has been said about Ventures, and a number of clubs have these, then they will not be able to teach for the LAPL (TMG) due to the engine although it's an EASA aircraft.
The Falke, actually, is neither use nor ornament as whilst in theory they can be used for training under EASA, try finding one with a sufficiently useful load to take two people and a little fuel (ask me how I know).
Dimona/Super Dimona - there just aren't enough of 'em around.
Effectively there will be no training for the LAPL (TMG) as there are minimal aircraft available.
NPPL (SLMG) training will be equally affected - because you can't use an EASA aircraft! (The Falke and the Venture are EASA aircraft).
After April 2015 you'll only be able to fly permit aircraft on a NPPL.
This EASA sh!t will kill GA in the UK.
7700
If what has been said about Ventures, and a number of clubs have these, then they will not be able to teach for the LAPL (TMG) due to the engine although it's an EASA aircraft.
The Falke, actually, is neither use nor ornament as whilst in theory they can be used for training under EASA, try finding one with a sufficiently useful load to take two people and a little fuel (ask me how I know).
Dimona/Super Dimona - there just aren't enough of 'em around.
Effectively there will be no training for the LAPL (TMG) as there are minimal aircraft available.
NPPL (SLMG) training will be equally affected - because you can't use an EASA aircraft! (The Falke and the Venture are EASA aircraft).
After April 2015 you'll only be able to fly permit aircraft on a NPPL.
This EASA sh!t will kill GA in the UK.
7700
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The MGIR has changed over the years.
Currently the BGA MGIR is an add on to a BGA Glider Intructor Rating and the holder may only instruct in gliding exercises.
The Instructor Rating for the NPPL Conversion from a Glider Pilot Licence to an NPPL SLMG is a CAA Rating although the course to obtain same is run by the Senior Motor Glider Examiner for the BGA.
The CAA rating permits the holder to instruct for the purpose of obtaining the NPPL SLMG rating but is not valid for instruction towards the TMG rating which is/was a JAR Rating.
The two ratings are mutually exclusive and have different revalidation regimes.
The holder of the CAA Rating may not teach gliding exercises as he/she is not qualified to do so any more than the holder of a BGA MGIR rating is qualified to teach towards an SLMG NPPL.
To teach both therefore requires holding both ratings
As an EX BGA Senior Regional Examiner I do have some knowledge of the system.
Unfortunately the title "Falke" covers a considerable range of Motor Gliders. While the early models are somewhat limited in useful load etc the later models manufactured by Scheibe as reconstituted are eminently suitable for both Instruction as well as being able to aerotow at least solo gliders. The latest Falke SF25C has a Rotax Engine while earlier versions of the Super Falke as it is known were fitted with 1700 or 2000cc Limbach engines.
The earlier models were monowheel undercarriage while the latest models are either conventional tail dragger or may be obtained with tricycle undercarriage
Currently the BGA MGIR is an add on to a BGA Glider Intructor Rating and the holder may only instruct in gliding exercises.
The Instructor Rating for the NPPL Conversion from a Glider Pilot Licence to an NPPL SLMG is a CAA Rating although the course to obtain same is run by the Senior Motor Glider Examiner for the BGA.
The CAA rating permits the holder to instruct for the purpose of obtaining the NPPL SLMG rating but is not valid for instruction towards the TMG rating which is/was a JAR Rating.
The two ratings are mutually exclusive and have different revalidation regimes.
The holder of the CAA Rating may not teach gliding exercises as he/she is not qualified to do so any more than the holder of a BGA MGIR rating is qualified to teach towards an SLMG NPPL.
To teach both therefore requires holding both ratings
As an EX BGA Senior Regional Examiner I do have some knowledge of the system.
Unfortunately the title "Falke" covers a considerable range of Motor Gliders. While the early models are somewhat limited in useful load etc the later models manufactured by Scheibe as reconstituted are eminently suitable for both Instruction as well as being able to aerotow at least solo gliders. The latest Falke SF25C has a Rotax Engine while earlier versions of the Super Falke as it is known were fitted with 1700 or 2000cc Limbach engines.
The earlier models were monowheel undercarriage while the latest models are either conventional tail dragger or may be obtained with tricycle undercarriage
Last edited by jgs43; 8th Oct 2012 at 14:28.