Is there a pilot onboard?

[dublinpilot]

I doubt even the most experienced PPLer would manage to pull off such a stunt in reality. He/she might try but it will most likely end in disaster.

Until last week I would have agreed with you.

But late last week, I got an hour in a full motion simulator for a 737-800. During that hour I carried out a number of landings, including some with IMC down to 600ft (I'm not IMC qualified).

While none of those landings were going to earn me an airline job, all were on the runway, all stopped on the runway, and none were are crash.

Now of course I had some significant advantages. I had an instructor in the right hand seat who was able to tune in the ILS for me, and give me some radar vectors to final. He also told me the appropriate speed to fly the approach at. But appart from that I was pretty much on my own.

Of course much of that could be gotten on the radio. ATC will be able to give you vectors to final, and surely there will be another type rated pilot on frequency to give the appropriate approach speed.

The things that will really work against you is
a) the fear factor. In reality this won't be a fun thing to do, but a life and death situation for you and about 200 other people, who are all counting on you.
b) the system. Figuring out how to tune in the ILS, set it up etc, adjust the screens will be very complicated while trying to fly the aircraft. If there were two PPL's on board, with one able to fly and the other free to communicate and try to work out how to enter appropriate frequencies etc I think the chances would be improved significantly. Fuel management might also be a significant issue if you were a long way from an airport. I've no idea what's involved there.

The lasting impression that I had was actually how similar a 737 was to a light aircraft. It had trottles, landing gear, flaps, a yoke, rudders and toe brakes. The basics weren't much different. What was harder though was the slower response times from the controls. I consistantly over controlled the aircraft on short final. Corrections need to be much smaller than on a light aircraft and that doesn't come naturally to a PPL.

So while I'm not nieve enough to think that I would perform as well in the real situation where many more factors come into play, I don't think that it would be as impossible as many (including myself until last week) would assume.

dp

[Flyinganaes]

Wasn't there an article in Pilot or Flyer magazine a couple of years ago where a PPL holder was put in a simulator and asked to land it from the cruise. If I remember rightly the first thing he did was try to contact ATC and inadvertently turned off the autopilot. However, after re-engaging the autopilot and successfully contacting ATC he was talked down to an acceptable landing.

[dash6]

Exactly Dublin.If you avoid the workload problem by leaving the autopilot engaged (Whatever it's name is.) and can work the radio to get the right advice,then you will probably be able to complete an auto land.
Then you can log it.
In general you can be proud of any landing where you can use the aircraft again.
That would IMHO not be the case if you tried to hand fly it!

[riverrock83]

The question is - did you "act as a member of the flight crew" on that flight.
(http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf article 79).
Article 50 says you need a licence to act as a member of the flight crew.

I'm sure somewhere else there is a "you can do anything you need to in an emergency to preserve life" or similar clause but I don't have it to hand.

I'm sure that once you say the magic words "mayday mayday mayday" then you can legally be a member of the flight crew, so everything would be legal and you can then log it - does someone have the reference?

[jollyrog]

I would write "hero" in my log book.

[Sillert,V.I.]

Originally Posted by dash6

Exactly Dublin.If you avoid the workload problem by leaving the autopilot engaged (Whatever it's name is.) and can work the radio to get the right advice,then you will probably be able to complete an auto land.

I'd agree.

What would be harder for a PPL would be to land something smaller with less automation & nasty handling (a metroliner comes to mind).

[Pace]

So while I'm not nieve enough to think that I would perform as well in the real situation where many more factors come into play, I don't think that it would be as impossible as many (including myself until last week) would assume.

DublinPilot

You maybe right you maybe wrong! We do not know as the real life situation has not been tested.

My concern is not the fact that sitting in the comfort and safety of a sim with an instructor alongside probably making it happen but the reality factor and all the stress which would go with it!!!

I really have seen pilots in an over stress situation go blank and freeze.
One who I was right seating in a twin on a missed approach was visibly overloaded.

On telling him to go around he stared blankly pulled the nose up and that was it! No power, no gear, no flaps.

This was a multi rated IMCR pilot in a twin not a large airline.

I have seen an instructor after a long and difficult IMC flight get out and not remember his name!

A basic PPL thrown into a situation like that??? I would expect the blank stare locked mind syndrome unless he was a very very cool customer indeed.
If anything went wrong in his approach it would go very wrong very quickly!

I'm sure that once you say the magic words "mayday mayday mayday" then you can legally be a member of the flight crew, so everything would be legal and you can then log it - does someone have the reference?

I am sorry but that is not correct! Unless you are legally qualified to fly the aircraft you cannot legally log the hours so unless your PPL was type rated then the hours cannot be legally logged or used!



Pace

[peterh337]

It is crystal clear.

There is no doubt you can log it.

You can log anything you like.

It is 100% legal to write in your logbook that you flew as a passenger on Easyjet.

I know a bloke who logs passenger time in spamcans.

You just cannot use those entries towards any known pilot license or rating etc (because you haven't got a Type Rating for the plane).

What is illegal is to use log entries towards stuff which the credit is not applicable to. For all I know, your 737 cockpit time might count towards some Indian flight engineer license

As regards landing a 737, I did the same as Dublinpilot, in 2010 at Budapest, on a Malev 737 sim. I also had the RHS instructor who set things up, but I landed in OVC002 very easily. Not prettily but at least as well as some airline landings I've been on

This was all hand flying, but crucially with the auto throttle engaged the whole time.

It's easy to fly. What is hard is controlling altitude, in a plane with perhaps 1/3 of the vertical performance of an F16. You would definitely bust the LTMA if departing from Redhill

So the key would be working out what knobs do what. I reckon if you were handed the plane 5 mins before the juice ran out then you would crash it. But with more time, a private pilot familiar with reasonable GA avionics would be fine. Some idea of speeds would be essential e.g. a Vref of 140kt will work just fine.

Talking to ATC ASAP might be a good idea otherwise you might get shot down. I think you would get shot down if you headed for LGW or LHR (depending on circumstances). I would head for Manston

[Above The Clouds]

It is crystal clear.

There is no doubt you can log it.

You can log anything you like.

It is 100% legal to write in your logbook that you flew as a passenger on Easyjet.

I know a bloke who logs passenger time in spamcans.

You just cannot use those entries towards any known pilot license or rating etc (because you haven't got a Type Rating for the plane).

What is illegal is to use log entries towards stuff which the credit is not applicable to. For all I know, your 737 cockpit time might count towards some Indian flight engineer license

Peter337 that is 100% correct without question

[Contact Approach]

This is all I can say: PMDG Simulations

If you've experience with that, you could easily use the automatics to bring it down safely.

[piperboy84]

Has this sort of thing ever happened outside the movies?

I remember a story of something similar happening, where a family visiting Africa had chartered a large twin piston with a single crew, the pilot became incapacitated mid flight and the family's father stepped in to fly and land it, the ironic thing, if i am recalling the news story correctly , the man who stepped in the was Rowan Atkinson AKA Mr Bean !!!!

[tomtytom]

I would like to think a ppl with assistance from atc would have a much better chance of a firm landing with minimal undercarriage damage then joe public. I hope aviate navigate communicate would stick. I would be logging the flight and put a note in remarks a explanation. I guess you would be vectored onto a cat III B told what buttons to press by atc then try your best. Its the same principles just bigger and faster.

[riverrock83]

Wife lands plane after calling 911 - Video on NBCNews.com
BBC News - Elderly US woman lands plane after pilot-husband dies
A pilot's unqualified wife landed the plane after he died at the controls. BBC version includes the fact that the plane was down to 1 engine, probably due to fuel starvation...

[austerwobbler]

I was a passenger on a flight in to Charles de Gaule when they announced " is there a Doctor on board " there was a passenger laid out on the floor in a real bad way, it was the fastest join, decend, land and taxi in to CDG I have ever had

Austerwobbler

[tomtytom]

Does atc have 'how to guides' to land a aircraft piloted by the joe public??

[jollyrog]

If it ever happens to me, I'm sticking to an airfield I know well. My 747 will be going to Headcorn.

[Sillert,V.I.]

It's happened for real in a KingAir.

this

[tomtytom]

Originally Posted by jollyrog

If it ever happens to me, I'm sticking to an airfield I know well. My 747 will be going to Headcorn.

this is mayday boeing 747 requesting overhead join

Call downwind report final and fly a slightly larger traffic pattern then normal

[Kolossi]

Negative, no overhead joins at Headcorn due parachutes in the air!

[Fuji Abound]

There are three issues that will "catch out" most PPLs.

1. If you get behind the curve and need to apply power you will struggle with the time it takes for the engines to spool up,
2. Inevitably you will struggle with the systems,
3. You will have hit the runway way before you think you should.

Keep the don nut in place, have someone manage the systems and "flare" (not that you really flare in the way you are accustom), and chances are it will be work man like if not pretty.