London Information any use?
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That's pretty old school, surely you mean traffic or deconfliction service rather than radar advisory?
No not old school although I preffered the old school
Just my abbreviations meant to say a Radar Service but put RA S as abbreviation which looks like Radar Advisory Service.
I was not being specific to what Radar Service you might want
Pace
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Jollyrog....
Not quite .......come up and visit us one day and you will see that is very very far off the mark.......now must head back to my bowl of porridge. 
I've never been far enough North to use Scottish Information. I have this picture in my head of Gregor Fisher and the Outer Hebridies Broadcasting Corporation.
Not quite .......come up and visit us one day and you will see that is very very far off the mark.......now must head back to my bowl of porridge.
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FisBangWollop
Do you by any chance hold restaurant information and booking service at destination?
That could be a good earner for your department as well as arranging taxis, Hotels la di da
Pace
Do you by any chance hold restaurant information and booking service at destination?
That could be a good earner for your department as well as arranging taxis, Hotels la di da
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 22nd Sep 2012 at 08:15.
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you will see that is very very far off the mark
Wandering around glasgow looking for a cheap pint with a newspaper under your arm.
Head bandages.
And pity wee Burnie got done for kiddie fiddling or we could make comments about some of your vertically challanged collegues, apparently we are not allowed to use the term PORG's any more in scotland.
And you do have a map with pins in it
Bet it has the best operational equipment failure risk assement in the center.
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London info is a very good service, providing up to date weather info, monitoring of flights that is very useful if you are crossing the sea and help with joining airways.
It is not a service to keep those of you who spend far too much time looking at the glass from hitting other aircraft, you have to look out of the window for that !
It is not a service to keep those of you who spend far too much time looking at the glass from hitting other aircraft, you have to look out of the window for that !
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Well perhaps some good news, when Fisbang says...
'Although not classed as a radar both London/Scottish have a FID " Flight Information Display" This is an anti airspace infringement tool and is there to assist the FISO in preventing a possible airspace/danger area infringement.'
So if anyone was likely to infringe, everyone from London to Swanwick would know about it... Does this really make it a Radar Service... perhaps not.
So there are still effectively large areas of the country, e.g. Most of Wales and from the West of Birmingham that have no Radar Service, even though many radar sets have the range to cover these areas.
On the weekend, most military units do not man their Radars, so Shawbury AIAA zone also reverts to the London Information Service. It is a pity NATS could not employ one opperator to keep these radar units active over the weekends.
I must admit to being trained in telecoms in the age of the PPI (Plan Position Indicator.) which was little more than a green line with a few blips on it, on a long persistance phosphour screen. Nowadays I suspect the radar returns are much more elaborate, maybe even using the internet for data interchange.
Pete
'Although not classed as a radar both London/Scottish have a FID " Flight Information Display" This is an anti airspace infringement tool and is there to assist the FISO in preventing a possible airspace/danger area infringement.'
So if anyone was likely to infringe, everyone from London to Swanwick would know about it... Does this really make it a Radar Service... perhaps not.
So there are still effectively large areas of the country, e.g. Most of Wales and from the West of Birmingham that have no Radar Service, even though many radar sets have the range to cover these areas.
On the weekend, most military units do not man their Radars, so Shawbury AIAA zone also reverts to the London Information Service. It is a pity NATS could not employ one opperator to keep these radar units active over the weekends.
I must admit to being trained in telecoms in the age of the PPI (Plan Position Indicator.) which was little more than a green line with a few blips on it, on a long persistance phosphour screen. Nowadays I suspect the radar returns are much more elaborate, maybe even using the internet for data interchange.
Pete
Last edited by phiggsbroadband; 22nd Sep 2012 at 10:19.
Even though they give you a Squalk (1155.) they have no Radar screen
In any event, don't assume London doesn't have access to radar information - if you go to Swanwick, chummy on the London desk only has to look sideways to see a screen. I was once routing N Wales to South Devon when I was asked by London if 'that was me' as I coasted out east of Swansea.
It's a friendly and helpful service and I'd always rather someone was waiting at the end of the line in the event of an emergency...
On my one visit to London FIR at Swanwick, their radar display was filtered to ONLY show 1177 codes (not 1155s) and they're not allowed to give instructions or advice to aircraft based on what they see on it, but it was quite a way away from the 'control' position in use, hence when operating Farnborough LARS East or North, we often used to phone FIR if we saw one of theirs about to infringe.
The FIR FISO has access to a very handy computer; all they need to do is put in location indicator of an airfield or danger area number and they instantly get info on it.
The FIR FISO has access to a very handy computer; all they need to do is put in location indicator of an airfield or danger area number and they instantly get info on it.
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The reason London Info is what it is is because of funding.
Employing FISOs is cheaper than employing radar qualified ATCOs.
The UK has an ICAO obligation to provide an FIS and it does that. There is no obligation to provide a radar service.
An ICAO compliant FIS can be done by a man sitting in a hut with a radio
If many more people "used" London Info then the service would instantly collapse, and would be unworkable long before that because the same frequency covers such a wide area.
I never use London Info when flying normally. The only time I call it up is to get a handover to London Control following a departure from somewhere where the tower was unmanned, or equivalent.
A listening watch on London Info is a good idea IF there is no radar service available from somebody else. For example it would be daft to be on London Info when you could be talking to Farnborough and this is true even if F is busy and can give you a Basic Service only i.e. no official traffic info.
That's funny because on my one visit to Swanwick, c. 2 years ago, the man told me their radar display shows all squawks
BTW I have a feeling that visits to Swanwick are all but worthless now because you get only as far as a conference room, whereas at West Drayton they actually showed people around the place.
Employing FISOs is cheaper than employing radar qualified ATCOs.
The UK has an ICAO obligation to provide an FIS and it does that. There is no obligation to provide a radar service.
An ICAO compliant FIS can be done by a man sitting in a hut with a radio
If many more people "used" London Info then the service would instantly collapse, and would be unworkable long before that because the same frequency covers such a wide area.
I never use London Info when flying normally. The only time I call it up is to get a handover to London Control following a departure from somewhere where the tower was unmanned, or equivalent.
A listening watch on London Info is a good idea IF there is no radar service available from somebody else. For example it would be daft to be on London Info when you could be talking to Farnborough and this is true even if F is busy and can give you a Basic Service only i.e. no official traffic info.
On my one visit to London FIR at Swanwick, their radar display was filtered to ONLY show 1177 codes
BTW I have a feeling that visits to Swanwick are all but worthless now because you get only as far as a conference room, whereas at West Drayton they actually showed people around the place.
Last edited by peterh337; 23rd Sep 2012 at 06:40.
I frequently fly across the length of Wales (where London is the only unit I can maintain 2-way RT with) and the channel; I use it only in case I have an emergency.
I was invited by NATS to visit Swanwick several years ago after a 'misunderstanding' whilst flying through Luton's zone (quickly sorted after reviewing the recorded conversation..). As a goodwill gesture, I was invited down to see how the unit operates and was given a personal tour of all the desks by off-duty ATCs and their supervisors, who were pleased to explain how all aircraft are shepherded into the various airports under Swanwick's control. I was there for 3 hours and was fascinated.
A new viewing gallery was opened at Swanwick last Friday, which means you're less likley to get up close and personal, but I'd still encourage anyone who hasn't already visited their local ATC to try and find time to do so. Trips are being arranged for this Autumn - clicky. Participating units include: Swanwick, Prestwick, Manchester, Farnborough, Bristol, Birmingham, Belfast and Norwich.
Radar can be configured to selectively display different air traffic, inluding by altitude and/or squawk
I was invited by NATS to visit Swanwick several years ago after a 'misunderstanding' whilst flying through Luton's zone (quickly sorted after reviewing the recorded conversation..). As a goodwill gesture, I was invited down to see how the unit operates and was given a personal tour of all the desks by off-duty ATCs and their supervisors, who were pleased to explain how all aircraft are shepherded into the various airports under Swanwick's control. I was there for 3 hours and was fascinated.
A new viewing gallery was opened at Swanwick last Friday, which means you're less likley to get up close and personal, but I'd still encourage anyone who hasn't already visited their local ATC to try and find time to do so. Trips are being arranged for this Autumn - clicky. Participating units include: Swanwick, Prestwick, Manchester, Farnborough, Bristol, Birmingham, Belfast and Norwich.
Radar can be configured to selectively display different air traffic, inluding by altitude and/or squawk
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London Info are great. You can be in touch with somebody helpful no matter where you are over the whole country (more or less) as long as you aren't low down in some valleys. There are areas where you can't get a LARS and it's always good to be in contact with someone so if you need to make a mayday, they already know all your details as opposed to calling 121.5.
