unprofessional flying
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Why don't you NOTAM on your drop days?
Nobody because everyone will be dead.
If you fly through and active DZ and a parachutist hits you who do you think will be the one that the CAA take to court
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It's not an attitude, it's a fact. On what basis would Caa prosecute? Both have the right to the airspace, you should take care when you fly and when you jump out of an aircraft, but I don't see a legal priority for the parachutist that other posts seem to assume or imply. A DZ IS PERMISSION NOT PROTECTION.
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I know that the gliders like to soar on west lomond but you weren't over there doing spins and it really is anyones airspace.
Where we were doing spins Portmoak was at a down angle of 30 degrees from 5000ft. Yes we were "outside" the area, yes it is anybody's airspace, I still think it's a bloody silly place to be. Perhaps because I have spun gliders in the same place.
I have been strapped in to a glider at Portmoak & seen 152/172's passing blissfully overhead at 1000ft. I've seen traffic close by & wondered where they are going next. A heli once came over the field at 50ft landed at the launch point without so much as a,by your leave, & asked the way to Aboyne, not a chart to his name, we gave him a chart, showed him where to go, Moron.
It doesn't take much common savvy to avoid places like that, the graveyards are full of people who had the right of way.
The advice I had was. Class G is Injun territory, keep yr powder dry & watch yr back. There's no point going looking for trouble.
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Moreoil, migh I kindly suggest you go and revise a bit of air law. Specifically on who has right of way in the air. The pecking order is quite clear.
I can guarantee that if you were to follow your arrogant assumption and go through a DZ and you were involved in a collision with a skydiver and were to survive, it would be you the CAA would prosecute.
A DZ does not have a legal status, it exists to provide a reminder of the rules of the air and therefore try to reduce the danger of an air to air collision between man and machine.
I can guarantee that if you were to follow your arrogant assumption and go through a DZ and you were involved in a collision with a skydiver and were to survive, it would be you the CAA would prosecute.
A DZ does not have a legal status, it exists to provide a reminder of the rules of the air and therefore try to reduce the danger of an air to air collision between man and machine.
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Floppyjock, the end of your last post could ne interpreted as unpleasant, but I will assume it was Tongue in cheek , I can tell you that I have the same airspace issues when flying a single display at off airfield sites, in spite of full Caa permission and 500 foot rule exemptions and notam action the display only has permission, not protection. I work really hard not only trying to display well and in the correct place but also look out and listen to local RT at 200+ mph and +5-2G, my biggest worry is someone bumbling through my display despite smoke and permissions, you seem to take great care before dropping the meat but please don't assume your DZ gives you any protection, stay vigilant.
Enjoy the sky.
Enjoy the sky.
Fly Conventional Gear
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Moreoil, migh I kindly suggest you go and revise a bit of air law. Specifically on who has right of way in the air. The pecking order is quite clear.
Reference perhaps?
I'd never thought to look it up because I always try to steer clear of parachute sites anyway but now that you mention it I'd be interested to know where in the rules of the air it is actually written. Quick check of the ANO didn't reveal anything either.
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The point I am struggling to get over is that in a DZ , there is no protection. Even if there were rules or laws- say like the Olympic airspace, the government were so confident that laws stop aeroplanes that they had typhoons and helicopter gunships standing ready. In practice, even in so called controlled airspace the best protection you have is your own vigilance.
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This seems to be turning into the usual PPrune battle for supremacy based on "I know what I'm saying is right, therefore you are wrong" I don't think Moreoil is suggesting that as we all have the right to blunder through a dropzone willy nilly we should do so. But that a DZ has no PROTECTION in law. There are quite enough laws & rules as it is without introducing more, I think this is a case where pilots should use common sense & not demand their "rights" just for the sake of it.
There is a public footpath near me that runs through a wooded area that is occasionally used for pheasant shoots. Do I walk my dog there on those days just because I can?
There is a public footpath near me that runs through a wooded area that is occasionally used for pheasant shoots. Do I walk my dog there on those days just because I can?
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C.O. Some people are crazy, flying over a glider site at 1000ft is definitely dumb if you don't call out to say hello. They were probably on the approach to Fife which Portmoak is about 9 miles straight in for so I can see why people would join from there but nonetheless not bright.
As for where you were I know the area very well indeed and would say that it required excellent lookout and a sensible approach to airmanship but isn't such a silly place to spin as you would think, lots of good fields and a runway should you need to land after an engine failure (if you're that unlucky). That's probably why the gliders spin there too. Nothing wrong with either but we are all entitled to our opinion.
As for West Lomond, Bishop's Hill - they are hardly a long way from each other!
and I've seen soaring on both, from my house and from the top.
Totally O.T. though
Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's not a stupid thing to do. It's not like there's nowhere else to fly there - bags of space to avoid the dropzone.
As for where you were I know the area very well indeed and would say that it required excellent lookout and a sensible approach to airmanship but isn't such a silly place to spin as you would think, lots of good fields and a runway should you need to land after an engine failure (if you're that unlucky). That's probably why the gliders spin there too. Nothing wrong with either but we are all entitled to our opinion.
As for West Lomond, Bishop's Hill - they are hardly a long way from each other!
and I've seen soaring on both, from my house and from the top. Totally O.T. though
Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's not a stupid thing to do. It's not like there's nowhere else to fly there - bags of space to avoid the dropzone.
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Pugilistic
You're right. I suppose when them wot rote the ANO, they didn't think it necessary to actually state "Give way to parachutes". Where does it say a/c shall give way to the ground?
You're right. I suppose when them wot rote the ANO, they didn't think it necessary to actually state "Give way to parachutes". Where does it say a/c shall give way to the ground?
Last edited by Crash one; 4th Sep 2012 at 10:07.
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Dan.
That area is most definately not on the approach to Fife. Not if you have more than two brain cells.
And I still disagree, pissing about aerobatting in sight of a gliding site is bloody silly.
You say you have seen them from your house. Have you actually been in a 14 a/c gaggle under low cloud along Bishop? Or on the day/weather in question, move out from the hill into the wave lift? cos that's where it comes from.
That area is most definately not on the approach to Fife. Not if you have more than two brain cells.
And I still disagree, pissing about aerobatting in sight of a gliding site is bloody silly.
You say you have seen them from your house. Have you actually been in a 14 a/c gaggle under low cloud along Bishop? Or on the day/weather in question, move out from the hill into the wave lift? cos that's where it comes from.
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Contacttower, basic rules of the air, power gives way to sail to balloon etc. A parachutist in flight has right of way as they have the limited manouverability. If you don't believe contact CAA enforcement and seek an opinion!!
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You're allowed to disagree. It doesn't mean you're right 
To me it's a situational thing, as is most stuff. I don't know the conditions you were flying in, what day it was, the location you were in precisely, whether there was active gliding, whether your instructor had in fact called portmoak on the phone before departure.
I've been gliding a couple of times, I don't have the patience for it
I have nothing to prove, but you seem to want to.
I mislike this attitude that "this is incorrect, that is not the right way to do it. It must be done like that" pilots seem to spout, particularly inexperienced ones and grouchy Captains.
I hear loads of pilots spout off about what's right and what's wrong and in most situations there is merely what happened at the time was decided correct for the given conditions.
Flying through a DZ while drops were going on and not speaking to anyone on the radio, is unquestionably not a grey area, it was extremely unwise.
Doing spins in a Cessna, 10 miles from a gliding site at 5000ft is totally different. If you can't see why then you need to think about your approach to airmanship.
To me it's a situational thing, as is most stuff. I don't know the conditions you were flying in, what day it was, the location you were in precisely, whether there was active gliding, whether your instructor had in fact called portmoak on the phone before departure.
I've been gliding a couple of times, I don't have the patience for it
I have nothing to prove, but you seem to want to.
I mislike this attitude that "this is incorrect, that is not the right way to do it. It must be done like that" pilots seem to spout, particularly inexperienced ones and grouchy Captains.
I hear loads of pilots spout off about what's right and what's wrong and in most situations there is merely what happened at the time was decided correct for the given conditions.
Flying through a DZ while drops were going on and not speaking to anyone on the radio, is unquestionably not a grey area, it was extremely unwise.
Doing spins in a Cessna, 10 miles from a gliding site at 5000ft is totally different. If you can't see why then you need to think about your approach to airmanship.
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Doing spins in a Cessna, 10 miles from a gliding site at 5000ft is totally different. If you can't see why then you need to think about your approach to airmanship.
And I will decide what I think is airmanship.
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And I will decide what I think is airmanship.
you do and you leave no room for being wrong, which can be tricky when you find yourself in a situation where your opinion and someone elses is different either in the same cockpit, or in a situation with traffic nearby. Airmanship isn't about absolutes, although often there are extremes.
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Airmanship isn't about rights it's about responsiblity and good manners. If you fly a powered aircraft it's only good manners to avoid parachuting sites and gliding sites, quite apart from it being a good deal safer!
I flew back IFR from Alderney yesterday at 5000ft in the Class G as I'm entitled to do, however my track took me over and close to gliding and parachute sites as well as danger areas, all of which I avoided by minor changes to track, or crossed with a suitable radar service.
It's not hard for heaven's sake, they are all on the charts, the GPS will tell you precisely where you are, the rest is pretty basic navigation!
I flew back IFR from Alderney yesterday at 5000ft in the Class G as I'm entitled to do, however my track took me over and close to gliding and parachute sites as well as danger areas, all of which I avoided by minor changes to track, or crossed with a suitable radar service.
It's not hard for heaven's sake, they are all on the charts, the GPS will tell you precisely where you are, the rest is pretty basic navigation!