Useful in an emergency?
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PA _ I was asking a simple question. Yes you are indeed correct and we should learn partial panel etc, et al, et blah blah. My question was, would having an app like this help the average Joe caught in a sticky situation....
It won't be in your normal scan and the panic factor will see to the rest.
Nice to have if your current and have some spare capacity partial panel but thats about it.
If your looking for a solution a battery powered backup artifical horizon is the only option. But you will have to make the effort to include it in your scan and sometimes do an approach only using it. You can get ones that have a ILS indication built in which is what we get on the commercials with EFIS.
You have to get home thing is the thing that kills you. And yes I have sat and continpated many a time about what I am about to put in the tech log to ground an aircraft, which has completely screwed with my personal life. And of cause everyone else due to travel and some times caused days of hassle to the schedual afterwards. To this day all of us are alive.
Last edited by mad_jock; 1st Sep 2012 at 15:56.
SubSonic
I wouldn't wanna bet my life on that gadget, 2 if you're too cheap to do what MadJock suggests..and you wanna bet you're life on uncertified technology...Well I can't stop you...I wont use it!
BTW what is so hard about partial panel?...
the only thing you can't do is an instruement takeoff but in reality an instrument takeoff is not to be advised...also really heavy IMC in SE airplanes is not a practice I'd recommend...I'd hate to lose an engine and not see where I'm going to land...
In Fact -and call me hard hearted-but I think IFR training is best started on the PP, with some excercises -- no VSI-because in the US a VSI is optional instrument equipment...
Edit if you saw my other optional STC'ed and TSO'd male equipment you wouldn't say anything is -'ess' about me--- maybe not a perfect 10 but a 9 for sure...
I wouldn't wanna bet my life on that gadget, 2 if you're too cheap to do what MadJock suggests..and you wanna bet you're life on uncertified technology...Well I can't stop you...I wont use it!
BTW what is so hard about partial panel?...
the only thing you can't do is an instruement takeoff but in reality an instrument takeoff is not to be advised...also really heavy IMC in SE airplanes is not a practice I'd recommend...I'd hate to lose an engine and not see where I'm going to land...In Fact -and call me hard hearted-but I think IFR training is best started on the PP, with some excercises -- no VSI-because in the US a VSI is optional instrument equipment...
Edit if you saw my other optional STC'ed and TSO'd male equipment you wouldn't say anything is -'ess' about me--- maybe not a perfect 10 but a 9 for sure...
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 1st Sep 2012 at 16:05.
As a microlight flier, I am supposed to stay well clear of clouds and anything that looks like a cloud. Still I know several microlight pilots who do have an artificial horizon installed - "just in case". I do not know if any ever used it "in anger", but it seems to me that I would not spend the money of a "real" AI, but would consider mounting an Android phone running such an application.
Much agree with MJ though: if it is there, it must be included in the instrument scan, and one should know what information to expect from it, and how to use it.
Much agree with MJ though: if it is there, it must be included in the instrument scan, and one should know what information to expect from it, and how to use it.
The trouble with partial panel is that students get a false sense of how easy it is during training. But they know it is coming and they are the sharpest they will ever be at flying the gauges. The real world scenario is you are flying along fat dumb and happy years later and the vacuum pump or the AI itself fails without you noticing. Then you start following the toppling horizon and now you are in an unusual attitude with the T and B saying different things. Sadly the accident record paints a not very pretty picture of what happens next 
Anybody who flies any kind of hard IFR without a back up independent AI is IMO foolish.
Anybody who flies any kind of hard IFR without a back up independent AI is IMO foolish.
In the meantime, if I do get caught out with a tech / weather issue, I'll use whatever tech is there to get me home safe.
Big Pistons
I fully agree I do emphasize constant cross check and actually, luckily, sometimes due to precession error the Gyro 'Twizzles' unexpectedly and I say see that?
As I do realize that vacuum failure is generally incipient until the gyroscope fully winds down... I also recommend that they keep the vaccuum indication or light in their scan...I want them to always check if the instruments are making sense..as opposed to just controlling the plane with them... of course I emphasize good unusual attitude recovery techiques...it's the best I can do...but again I truly agree...I think a standby gyro is the best option...I tell them as much as I can think of...unfortunately I don't know if I think of much or even think of enough...
This is one area where flight simulator technology is helpful...
but I'd be afraid to use uncertified technology...I'd be too fearful to trust my life to it...I tellthe commercial hour builders too fly IFR in SE all the time but only if it's very light IMC...
plus lack of Radar or even stormscope further precludes real heavy IFR work...
I fully agree I do emphasize constant cross check and actually, luckily, sometimes due to precession error the Gyro 'Twizzles' unexpectedly and I say see that?
As I do realize that vacuum failure is generally incipient until the gyroscope fully winds down... I also recommend that they keep the vaccuum indication or light in their scan...I want them to always check if the instruments are making sense..as opposed to just controlling the plane with them... of course I emphasize good unusual attitude recovery techiques...it's the best I can do...but again I truly agree...I think a standby gyro is the best option...I tell them as much as I can think of...unfortunately I don't know if I think of much or even think of enough...
This is one area where flight simulator technology is helpful...
but I'd be afraid to use uncertified technology...I'd be too fearful to trust my life to it...I tellthe commercial hour builders too fly IFR in SE all the time but only if it's very light IMC...
plus lack of Radar or even stormscope further precludes real heavy IFR work...
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 1st Sep 2012 at 18:13.
I meant to file IFR all the time even in VMC and to only fly on 'nice' VFR nights...funny enough I once warned my own instructor who was hour building for his ATP and he said "don't worry I have it, I'm good" until he hit severe convective wx afterwards he had a different view-and was more conservative about IMC without storm detection in SE airplanes
I remember him saying afterwards "I'll never forget flying into that cloud it was my scariest experience ever" He's a good guy too, I would have been crushed if anything happened to him...
edit: storm detection in GA is better with XM sattlelite Wx but that's very rough and should only be used for very, very conservative wx avoidance...
I remember him saying afterwards "I'll never forget flying into that cloud it was my scariest experience ever" He's a good guy too, I would have been crushed if anything happened to him...
edit: storm detection in GA is better with XM sattlelite Wx but that's very rough and should only be used for very, very conservative wx avoidance...
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 1st Sep 2012 at 19:23.
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I once decided to "punch through" what we call a snow streamer, while enroute VFR. The snow streamer is a line of snowfall which if crossed, may only be a quarter mile through to the other side. In there, it's not VFR, on either side, it's usually very good vis and ceiling.
I entered the snow in the mighty C 150, which has standard instrumentation, other than the AI does have a loss of vaccum warning flag. I was in for only a few seconds, and beginning to correct for an indicated roll. I got about 30 degrees over, and things were not right, so I went into partial panel mode to cross check what was happening. As I righted the aircraft with reference to everything other than the AI, the AI was passing through a roll angle exceeding 135 degrees. No vacuum warning flag.
I popped out the other side of the snow in seconds (less than a minute total time in). I came out upright, with the AI showing just about perfectly up side down. It had appeared to be working perfectly at the moment I entered the snow, and quit the instant I referred to it in the snow.
A second AI would have been great, but its a VFR C 150 - it just does not belong IMC, much less hard IFR. The gyro had seized a bearing, and the vaccum was fine (hence no flag).
But, once I confirmed the failure by flying partial panel, and got the plane erect again. the recovery was complete, and prolonged partial panel flight was easily accomplished. Rooting around in a flight bag to dig out the Iphone and start the app for the stanby AI would have taken so long, and been so distracting, that I would have been in the ground vertically by then.
If you have time to get the Iphone out, and get it going, it's probably 'cause you got the copilot to fly, and they referred to their instruments, so you were all set with redundency anyway!
I entered the snow in the mighty C 150, which has standard instrumentation, other than the AI does have a loss of vaccum warning flag. I was in for only a few seconds, and beginning to correct for an indicated roll. I got about 30 degrees over, and things were not right, so I went into partial panel mode to cross check what was happening. As I righted the aircraft with reference to everything other than the AI, the AI was passing through a roll angle exceeding 135 degrees. No vacuum warning flag.
I popped out the other side of the snow in seconds (less than a minute total time in). I came out upright, with the AI showing just about perfectly up side down. It had appeared to be working perfectly at the moment I entered the snow, and quit the instant I referred to it in the snow.
A second AI would have been great, but its a VFR C 150 - it just does not belong IMC, much less hard IFR. The gyro had seized a bearing, and the vaccum was fine (hence no flag).
But, once I confirmed the failure by flying partial panel, and got the plane erect again. the recovery was complete, and prolonged partial panel flight was easily accomplished. Rooting around in a flight bag to dig out the Iphone and start the app for the stanby AI would have taken so long, and been so distracting, that I would have been in the ground vertically by then.
If you have time to get the Iphone out, and get it going, it's probably 'cause you got the copilot to fly, and they referred to their instruments, so you were all set with redundency anyway!
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You had a lucky escape
The Iphone would have been useless because it is not self erecting. You have to be straight and level and press a button to tell it so. Then it works for, I guess, a minute or two, well enough. There are things one can do with cheap gyros which are well known (visit any "homebuilt aircraft" exhibition) but these Iphone apps are useless.
I don't know anybody who files serious IFR who has less than 3 gyros: a vacuum AI (or in very modern fits an electric one with a separate supply) and an electric AI, plus a TC. I have all 3 too. It is inconceivable that one would lose all 3 at the same time, quickly. What is possible however, in a high workload scenario, is that one might be focussed on the main AI and not notice its failure.
The Iphone would have been useless because it is not self erecting. You have to be straight and level and press a button to tell it so. Then it works for, I guess, a minute or two, well enough. There are things one can do with cheap gyros which are well known (visit any "homebuilt aircraft" exhibition) but these Iphone apps are useless.
I don't know anybody who files serious IFR who has less than 3 gyros: a vacuum AI (or in very modern fits an electric one with a separate supply) and an electric AI, plus a TC. I have all 3 too. It is inconceivable that one would lose all 3 at the same time, quickly. What is possible however, in a high workload scenario, is that one might be focussed on the main AI and not notice its failure.
Pilot DAR Quite an account good thing you were up on the partial panel...the holes were really almost completely lined up for you...
in GA real heavy IMC IMHO requires a twin with some sort of storm detection...even satellite Wx...otherwise it's gamble...A Cirrus or something like that can do light IMC with no problem if you want to do even light IMC with a basic plane you'd better keep cross checking everything...as the above posts makes precisely clear you never know what will fail, how it will fail, how fast it will fail, and when it fail..so if you want to take the risk of only having an AI and TC you had better never really trust them...
Best to use the iPhone to cancel your IFR flight plan--- if things are too heavy and you're not prepared... then use it to call the taxi to take you back to the motel...
in GA real heavy IMC IMHO requires a twin with some sort of storm detection...even satellite Wx...otherwise it's gamble...A Cirrus or something like that can do light IMC with no problem if you want to do even light IMC with a basic plane you'd better keep cross checking everything...as the above posts makes precisely clear you never know what will fail, how it will fail, how fast it will fail, and when it fail..so if you want to take the risk of only having an AI and TC you had better never really trust them...
Best to use the iPhone to cancel your IFR flight plan--- if things are too heavy and you're not prepared... then use it to call the taxi to take you back to the motel...
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 1st Sep 2012 at 19:36.
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in GA real heavy IMC IMHO requires a twin with some sort of storm detection...even satellite Wx...otherwise it's gamble...A Cirrus or something like that can do light IMC
I never knew a 2nd motor provided better weather capability
What is actually needed is- de-ice
- radar
- high altitude capability to get above organised IMC if possible (FL250+)
- high performance (obviously)
- systems redundancy (2 alternators, 2 buses, 2 batteries, etc)
In most cases, a FL250 ceiling, full TKS, and decent performance will get you into VMC which is the best place to be.
There is no tactically usable satellite wx service in Europe. There is a system operated by Moving Terrain and one operated by Avidyne, both using Iridium, but neither delivering real time wx radar data. One can get Tafs and Metars easily enough (I can get them over my Thuraya satphone) but that's not useful for tactical weather penetration.
A stormscope is a common fit but while a strong indication on it is a definite no-go, a lack of any indication doesn't mean there isn't going to be very nasty turbulence. Weather radar is probably more useful, together with a stormscope even better.
Ultimately if you want to penetrate "heavy IMC" you need to be prepared for a severe shaking-up every once in a while. That's how airlines work it; they have very good high-perf hardware but the bottom line is that the passengers can't complain to the pilots, whereas if you do that in your own plane it may be the last time anybody flies with you
I guess I mean GA-level 'light heavy'---airline pilots must fly in almost anything...except into thunderstorm
- de-ice
- radar
- high altitude capability to get above organised IMC if possible
(FL250+)
- high performance (obviously)
- systems redundancy (2 alternators, 2 buses, 2 batteries, etc)
many twins have that -stuff/those capabilities
some twins are equipped with- real deice rarely
but trust me I know what you mean ...but ultimately the PIC is the last word on what s/he does... I've done some relatively nasty wx in light twins, in commercial operations--albeit a very well equipped Seneca...not fun...
But the minimum 'airline nasty' IMC is probably a Turbo-comander or BE-200
- de-ice
- radar
- high altitude capability to get above organised IMC if possible
(FL250+)
- high performance (obviously)
- systems redundancy (2 alternators, 2 buses, 2 batteries, etc)
many twins have that -stuff/those capabilities
some twins are equipped with- real deice rarely
but trust me I know what you mean ...but ultimately the PIC is the last word on what s/he does... I've done some relatively nasty wx in light twins, in commercial operations--albeit a very well equipped Seneca...not fun...
But the minimum 'airline nasty' IMC is probably a Turbo-comander or BE-200
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 2nd Sep 2012 at 02:13.
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many twins have that -stuff
some twins are equipped with- real deice rarely
some twins are equipped with- real deice rarely
Also, the "Perspective" SR22 [and I believe now also the Columbia] have dual AHRS plus a mechanical back-up attitude indicator. That'll do.
And both Columbia 400 and SR22T/TN outperform many light twins.
The only real argument for a twin specifically in IMC is the survivability of an engine failure above low cloud or fog.
Cobalt...another real argument for it is getting those lab samples in...and be able to eat...
PA-34s are very good planes and yes It is engine failure that worries me the most in IMC...and the TSOI versions give decent OEI-climb and Ceiling for a small twin and they have dual alternators and a battery yes a single bus but it's very, very robust one to meet 14CFR 23...note I only mentioned the Seneca out of all the aforementioned...you can fly pretty heavy IFR on the PA-34...but it require immense judgement---not to be recommended for those who are not prepared...for sure...never flew one but 411A's 411 also seems more than adequate for commercial operations
Cirrus-in commercial operation...
I'd never contemplate it unless they want a 50% dispatch rate
PA-34s are very good planes and yes It is engine failure that worries me the most in IMC...and the TSOI versions give decent OEI-climb and Ceiling for a small twin and they have dual alternators and a battery yes a single bus but it's very, very robust one to meet 14CFR 23...note I only mentioned the Seneca out of all the aforementioned...you can fly pretty heavy IFR on the PA-34...but it require immense judgement---not to be recommended for those who are not prepared...for sure...never flew one but 411A's 411 also seems more than adequate for commercial operations
Cirrus-in commercial operation...
I'd never contemplate it unless they want a 50% dispatch rate
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 1st Sep 2012 at 23:34.
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I've been toying with the idea of getting the new Dynon D1 backup horizon / mini EFIS thingy.
Dynon Avionics - The D1 Pocket Panel
Has anyone tried one? Any opinions on it? Obviously it would need to be mounted and powered as a matter of course (not just in an emergency), but I thought it could be a nice backup system.
Dynon Avionics - The D1 Pocket Panel
Has anyone tried one? Any opinions on it? Obviously it would need to be mounted and powered as a matter of course (not just in an emergency), but I thought it could be a nice backup system.
That looks like good idea...never tried it but I think I'd trust it...
Edit: I know pilots that do IMC in many of the aforementioned twins...and they are not muppets...Personally 'dI take the Lear 25 over AOTA...and yes she really needs two pilots... but for all intents and purposes there is no wx anymore.......I miss the right seat of that baby...
Edit: I know pilots that do IMC in many of the aforementioned twins...and they are not muppets...Personally 'dI take the Lear 25 over AOTA...and yes she really needs two pilots... but for all intents and purposes there is no wx anymore...
....I miss the right seat of that baby...
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 1st Sep 2012 at 23:56.
I would greatly appreciate if everyone would be so kind as to check out my post here as I think it includes some useful information...please disregard any information therein that is not directly applicable to your operations...
http://www.pprune.org/7384725-post3.html
http://www.pprune.org/7384725-post3.html
Just one more thing
And both Columbia 400 and SR22T/TN outperform many light twins.
That depends on what exactly you mean by performance
In PAYload...?
And in the other areas you mention [it depends on which plane you're speaking of and under which conditions]
in a have some fun with a cool new plane?...maybe
BTW a Pitts or Extra way out-performs 'em all and the Cub is the most fun of all!!!...
And both Columbia 400 and SR22T/TN outperform many light twins.
In PAYload...?
And in the other areas you mention [it depends on which plane you're speaking of and under which conditions]
in a have some fun with a cool new plane?...maybe
BTW a Pitts or Extra way out-performs 'em all and the Cub is the most fun of all!!!...
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I hope everyone here realises that in a the future, everything will be like a more advanced iPhone is today - there will be no more vacuum systems and no more turn coordinators spinning lumps of metal. It will all be laser gyros. So might as well get comfortable with the technology now.