Crossing Alps and Oxygen - rules?

[peterh337]

If you can get to FL140 you should be fine on a nice calm day.

Remember that the claimed ceiling will be achieved only in ISA conditions. In Sep/Oct you should be OK but much of this "summer" I have been seeing ISA+10 to ISA+15 and that knocks anything up to 3000ft off the ceiling.

Flying abroad is no problem and your 180hrs is fine. I was doing trips like this with less time. You just have to get your ducks in a row and do the planning and understand aircraft performance; stuff not necessary if going to say Bembridge

So thoughts were, be above MSA, stay there and have a chat to ATC for some vectors.

That's not a good strategy. For serious flights you need proper navigation which means a decent GPS. ATC will not offer vectors below their minimum vectoring altitude and that is usually a few thousand feet above the general terrain in the Alps. But you need to avoid IMC because of the icing risk; you will not have an escape route via a descent.

[achimha]

Thanks for your notes of the legal position. This reads to me like 12,000ft legal limit without O2 on board, as you say it only says I need a bottle. But this reads to me that if I go above 12,000 I do not need O2 unless I am there for 30 minutes or more, but I need it on board to bust 12,000. Is that a correct interpretation?

No, you need oxygen after 30 minutes at > 12 000ft. The law doesn't say what kind of system or that you actually have to breathe it. Once you climb above 13 000 ft, you need oxygen on board. If you don't have any and cruise at FL125, you have to descend after 30 minutes.

Sorry, in Germany when flying VFR above 5000ft amsl or 2000ft above ground it is MANDATORY to maintain a Flight Level according to the semicircular rules (55,75,95,115 from 0 - 179 degrees magnetic track, 65,85,105 etc from 180 degrees to 359 degrees).

In reality nobody cares about this. I have never been asked by ATC to respect the semicircular rules and I regularly fly even levels (IFR) or other direction level in airspace C (which implies ATC clearance to do so). In my understanding, this is more a historical thing back when radar coverage was limited.

[italianjon]

Peterh337,

That's not a good strategy.

I agree now hence "My thoughts were..." not are

Achimha, thanks with FL125 for 30 minutes that at least offers me compliance with semi-circular for the return leg. Even if it's not that adhered to.

[Pace]

Pace, I've taken what you've said on board and will check my O2 performance with altitude.

Just adding that any tests you make to check out your own comfort altitudes should be done with another pilot who does have oxygen as he can monitor you in safety while on your own you cannot monitor yourself. The symptoms of hypoxia can be overconfidence and not realising you are making mistakes

Pace

[Fuji Abound]

I assume you wouldnt consider this trip without good GPS. On that basis I am not sure where you think ATC might come in with vectors? Over the Alps unless above the MSA they are not going to give you vectors, and in any event they arent going to see cloud on their radar (as opposed to precipitation). As with any flight above the MSA and IF in CAS you could request x degrees left or right for weather but the request is based on your visual perception of the weather ahead, or, if fitted, the weather information in the cockpit. To be frank at the point at which you start requesting vectors around weather unless you are very comfortable with what you are doing you might well do better with another plan (like turning back) because certainly I find when ever you start requesting vectors around weather there is a very good chance you will end up in IMC for a period of time. Once in IMC over the ALPs what are you going to do, even with ATC's help? You could ask for a climb, but you might not achieve VMC on top before exhausting your aircraft's performance, and you could ask for turns, but neither you or ATC will have much idea whether this is likely to take you out of the weather. Of course, what you cant do is ask for a descent which is often a good get out of trouble solution where the MSA is much lower and/or where you know there is VMC below. If you elected to stay in IMC for however long it took aside for the icing risk which is very real, you cant expect ATC to vector you "out of trouble". As a last resort it could be an option, but you definitely should not have got yourself into that situation in the first place unless you were also "happy" to take responsibility for your own navigation including diversions and for some unexpected reason (like dual GPS failures) things haven't gone well!

With apologies, I am not trying to teach you to suck eggs, or to bang on about IMC, but IMC above the Alps is really not a good idea and should be avoided at almost all cost unless you are very certain about your instrument flying and the aircraft's capability. In short unless you are very certain, the trip should be an assured VMC day and if it doesn't go to plan for any reason the old adage of turning back or diverting is a good one.

[Immortal]

Don't forget this tool if you go flying high.

Checkmate Pulse Oximeter and Heart Rate Monitor

[peterh337]

You can fill yer boots with oximeters here

This one is quite good, but would probably get in the way. Perhaps one could wear it on one's willy?

Might be worth taking the C172 up to Norfolk (CAS base FL200) and see how high it really goes. I wonder what the correct procedure would be to get a non-instrumented engine to the operating ceiling? A cruise climb ought to do it, I suppose, eventually. One cannot use the constant-EGT method without an EGT gauge.

[Fuji Abound]

I see in Cirrus's new offering they build the oximeter into the panel and, as before, the oxygen is "fitted".

[italianjon]

Norfolk would be a good place, but I'm southern Germany at the moment... lol. A long flight for that. I can get to FL100 as it is all Class E to that level here, except for around the big airports where it is C/D. So I can probably get a good idea of climb performance to that level. I think it is C above that, so could probably ask Lagen Info for higher, they might say bog off... but you never know.

The steed does have 1 EGT gauge, in fact all aircraft I can get my hands on do, I'm not sure but the C182 might have EGT/CHT per cylinder as well; I would need to check.

I normally cruise around 6k to 8k when the leg is longer than an hour. Did Strasbourg a while ago 61 minutes wheels up to wheels down FL065. Worked well to constant EGT up to cruise and then set cruise power Peak EGT. On the way down I nudged it to about 100F ROP and then let it come back to just ROP, before nudging to 100F again. Worked well with a power on decent. Out of a PA28 got 125 to 130 KIAS all the way down to the circuit.

[Fuji Abound]

One EGT is better than none!

The problem of course is that you don't know if one (or more) cylinder(s) is (are) running hot and if you are using the EGT to operate at LOP then that substantially increases the danger of causing severe damage.

With a single EGT I think you are better off using the mixture control but back it up by a reasonable degree so the engine is running a little more rich, and by all means monitoring the EGT to establish whether it trends as you would expect.

[peterh337]

You may well find that if you cross in Swiss airspace, they won't let you go into the Class C whose base is FL130 in places (was last time I looked). So you have to fly fairly close to the terrain. That's what I ended up doing on this trip in 2004.

One EGT gauge is good enough as it allows you to fly the constant-EGT climb profile, where you note the EGT after takeoff, and then gradually lean throughout the climb, keeping that value constant-ish. Some notes here (search for constant-EGT method).

[172driver]

I have flown - repeatedly - over several mountain ranges, not only the Alps. Leaving the O2 issue aside, trying to cross ANY mountain range with only 1000ft to spare borders on the insane, especially in an (at that altitude) totally underpowered a/c.

Do *not* assume that because it's nice and calm where you start your trip and the fcst wx is good that it will be like that at altitude and/or remain throughout your trip. Wx in the Alps especially can change at no notice at all and can easily catch you out. Always have a Plan B and enough air between you and the cumulugranitus.

Btw, you say you are in southern Germany. IIRC getting to FL120/150 is not an issue in Austria, if you want to give it a go. Then again, you'll already be half way across the Alps by then

[achimha]

Norfolk would be a good place, but I'm southern Germany at the moment... lol. A long flight for that. I can get to FL100 as it is all Class E to that level here, except for around the big airports where it is C/D. So I can probably get a good idea of climb performance to that level. I think it is C above that, so could probably ask Lagen Info for higher, they might say bog off... but you never know.

No problem, in 9 out of 10 cases you will get permission to enter airspace C in Germany as long as they get the impression that you know how to fly an airplane and do radio communication. Just give them a reason so they know that not granting the request would mean an inconvenience to you. Note that airspace E extends up to FL130 in the alpine area in Germany (marked on the VFR maps). Some months ago I went to FL200 just for fun and to test my oxygen saturation, no issue at all. They might give you a few vectors so you stay where they want you to be.