London Control - improved
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London Control - improved
On a positive note...
Flew to Weston EIWT, from Shoreham EGKA, IFR, via GWC, BCN, STU, etc, Eurocontrol.
On the way out there, filed for FL160 (all in CAS) but stopped climb at FL130 and later climbed to FL140, but as CAS base after BCN is FL145 I dropped into Class G, which caused LC to drop me onto "Western Radar", with a different squawk. This caused Eurocontrol to dispose of the flight plan, so even though I was back in CAS soon afterwards Dublin had no idea of what I was
So that part of the "UK way of doing things" has not changed.
On the way back, it went pretty well. I filed for FL150 and stayed there, above a layer of some high altitude fluff (yes I do have a chart showing cloud types on the wall in my downstairs toilet) and LC kept me nice and high for a long time, and still up at FL80 or so at GWC and then a DCT, descent and a transfer to EGKA while still in the CAS(T), so a quick descent from FL80 in about 10nm (gear down). They seem to be dealing with the olympic CAS(T) by keeping traffic high up inside it, whereas on past occassions I would be dumped around CPT (with complaints if descending slower than 1000fpm) and then washed hands of.
This is a much better system and I hope they continue with it after the absolutely gripping womens relay egg races are over. It's obvious that it works relative to LGW and LHR traffic because that stuff is still there, so any previous excuse for the early dump cannot really hold up.
Flew to Weston EIWT, from Shoreham EGKA, IFR, via GWC, BCN, STU, etc, Eurocontrol.
On the way out there, filed for FL160 (all in CAS) but stopped climb at FL130 and later climbed to FL140, but as CAS base after BCN is FL145 I dropped into Class G, which caused LC to drop me onto "Western Radar", with a different squawk. This caused Eurocontrol to dispose of the flight plan, so even though I was back in CAS soon afterwards Dublin had no idea of what I was
So that part of the "UK way of doing things" has not changed.On the way back, it went pretty well. I filed for FL150 and stayed there, above a layer of some high altitude fluff (yes I do have a chart showing cloud types on the wall in my downstairs toilet) and LC kept me nice and high for a long time, and still up at FL80 or so at GWC and then a DCT, descent and a transfer to EGKA while still in the CAS(T), so a quick descent from FL80 in about 10nm (gear down). They seem to be dealing with the olympic CAS(T) by keeping traffic high up inside it, whereas on past occassions I would be dumped around CPT (with complaints if descending slower than 1000fpm) and then washed hands of.
This is a much better system and I hope they continue with it after the absolutely gripping womens relay egg races are over. It's obvious that it works relative to LGW and LHR traffic because that stuff is still there, so any previous excuse for the early dump cannot really hold up.
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How can they dispose of your IFR flight plan without you requesting to cancel your IFR? If I file an IFR flight plan to e.g. Shoreham, I should be guaranteed to remain IFR until the successful completion of an IFR approach or the moment I request to cancel IFR.
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Originally Posted by achimha
How can they dispose of your IFR flight plan without you requesting to cancel your IFR?
Originally Posted by peterh337
This is a much better system and I hope they continue with it
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The 'easy way out' for London is to co-erse any relatively low performance light aircraft to leave controlled airspace before it reaches the complexities of the London TMA
Accordingly, I suffer from a continued difficulty reconciling the "packed airspace" claims that come from various ATCOs on the pilot forums, and Eurocontrol officials in their presentations, with reality, where I am flying at say FL100-150 and all I see is contrails at ~FL300+, and the occassional "737" at my sort of level but so far away I can't tell if it is a 737 or a 747. This is the kind of thing.
The same is echoed across Europe, e.g. flying around Brussels, Frankfurt, etc.
I am sure that when LC used to dump people out of CAS it was due to laziness, or maybe some dodgy laid down procedures. Not because they could not achieve separation. UK IFR ATC are up with the best there is. Only the USA does better, in the sense of a "can do" attitude.
Such action should be compensated by hefty rebate on route charges!
Last edited by peterh337; 12th Aug 2012 at 13:33.
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One interesting thing was that when I dropped out of the base of CAS, the EuroFPL (through which the FP was filed) tracking facility showed that Eurocontrol lost me too, and still showed me in flight some 10 hours later 
I can see how this happens: ATC issued me with a different squawk when London Control dropped me. But even though the original squawk was restored (by Dublin) later, the flight was never re-picked up by the Eurocontrol tracking.
I can see how this happens: ATC issued me with a different squawk when London Control dropped me. But even though the original squawk was restored (by Dublin) later, the flight was never re-picked up by the Eurocontrol tracking.
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Some controllers have a tendency to "encourage" pilots of slower aircraft to leave controlled airspace earlier than they may want to. It requires less effort, but it's lazy and unprofessional. If this ever happens to you, make it known that you don't want to leave so early. It is one of my pet hates and something I try to hammer out of trainees.
If nobody complains, the issue won't be picked up.
If nobody complains, the issue won't be picked up.
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The issue of the "early dump" has been a long standing one in the private IFR community and AFAICT it went on for many years.
People would get dumped at DVR, when going to say Cranfield, and have to hack along at 2400ft, often in IMC, icing in the winter, etc.
One can understand dumping somebody at say DVR when going to Shoreham, but that's also bad if you are trying to stay above bad wx and don't want to descend till late. Or you are coming over the water and want to stay as high as possible.
It would totally spook a foreign pilot who simply filed "IFR", expecting "UK IFR" to be like IFR anywhere else, and who would not realise that a handover to "London 124.6" meant his IFR clearance has been terminated, his flight plan thrown away (in effect, and it will vanish for real from Eurocontrol ~30 mins later) and now he needs to dig out his VFR charts (what VFR charts - I am an IFR flight ) to continue.
The indications however are that this has much improved, which is great.
It has also been improved in France, where Paris Control now handle traffic down to FL100 (or maybe even lower) whereas previously it was FL120+. In French ATC, only Paris Control can AFAIK hand over to London Control, so if you wanted your Eurocontrol flight plan and IFR clearance to continue into the UK, you had to leave French airspace at/above FL120 (i.e. on oxygen). Now one can fly at FL100. But you will still get dumped onto 124.6 if you filed for say FL080.
People would get dumped at DVR, when going to say Cranfield, and have to hack along at 2400ft, often in IMC, icing in the winter, etc.
One can understand dumping somebody at say DVR when going to Shoreham, but that's also bad if you are trying to stay above bad wx and don't want to descend till late. Or you are coming over the water and want to stay as high as possible.
It would totally spook a foreign pilot who simply filed "IFR", expecting "UK IFR" to be like IFR anywhere else, and who would not realise that a handover to "London 124.6" meant his IFR clearance has been terminated, his flight plan thrown away (in effect, and it will vanish for real from Eurocontrol ~30 mins later) and now he needs to dig out his VFR charts (what VFR charts - I am an IFR flight
) to continue.The indications however are that this has much improved, which is great.
It has also been improved in France, where Paris Control now handle traffic down to FL100 (or maybe even lower) whereas previously it was FL120+. In French ATC, only Paris Control can AFAIK hand over to London Control, so if you wanted your Eurocontrol flight plan and IFR clearance to continue into the UK, you had to leave French airspace at/above FL120 (i.e. on oxygen). Now one can fly at FL100. But you will still get dumped onto 124.6 if you filed for say FL080.
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This sounds rather scary, not something I would expect on an IFR flight plan. While one can always argue with ATC, they have powerful means of retaliation (detours, holdings). Without the (foreign) pilot realizing, he suddenly loses separation and needs to take care of airspace. When planning IFR, I don't familiarize myself with airspaces at all. Never understood why one would want to have airspace G high up, as soon as there's radar coverage, it should be at least E in my opinion.
Regarding France -- I've never experienced any requirements to be > FL100 or > FL120 on an IFR flight. Just the other day I flew all the way from Paris / Toussus to Stuttgart at FL090. In France, I prefer IFR even on CAVOK days so I don't have to deal with their amazing airspace maze during weekdays.
Regarding France -- I've never experienced any requirements to be > FL100 or > FL120 on an IFR flight. Just the other day I flew all the way from Paris / Toussus to Stuttgart at FL090. In France, I prefer IFR even on CAVOK days so I don't have to deal with their amazing airspace maze during weekdays.
Last edited by achimha; 15th Aug 2012 at 07:24.
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Eurocontrol routes can be filed around France down to FL070, generally.
It is the only place in Europe where you can do that (I think Germany may be similar but it's a long time since I flew VFR there) - thanks to their extensive Class E airspace segments, generally FL065-FL120, above which it is Class D.
It is the transition between that and other countries' airspace where the issue occurs.
Class E? You would need to find the money to pay a whole load more ATCOs to cover IFR traffic in that, which isn't going to happen in the UK
It is the only place in Europe where you can do that (I think Germany may be similar but it's a long time since I flew VFR there) - thanks to their extensive Class E airspace segments, generally FL065-FL120, above which it is Class D.
It is the transition between that and other countries' airspace where the issue occurs.
Class E? You would need to find the money to pay a whole load more ATCOs to cover IFR traffic in that, which isn't going to happen in the UK
Last edited by peterh337; 15th Aug 2012 at 08:49.
