Crash filmed from cockpit
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: fort sheridan, il
Posts: 1,656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
now, I haven't flown piston engine planes in about 27 years or so. but I do remember that taking off at a high density altitude sometimes requires the leaning of the mixture to optimize engine performance...I will bow to those who have actually flown this type to verify this. I've watched the video , on tv, again and the red mixture knob is fully forward.
There is something that many mountain flyers don't know...that is: where is the horizon?
most people point the nose up near the top of the mountains, when in reality, the horizon is near the base of the mountains. could our heroes have misjudged pitch, therefore speed and performance?
Look, it is very easy to say: it was too high and too hot to fly. easy enough and possibly true. but let's examine everything and someone out there might learn something.
topics for discussion:
dry microbursts
thermals
engine controls
dust devils
There is something that many mountain flyers don't know...that is: where is the horizon?
most people point the nose up near the top of the mountains, when in reality, the horizon is near the base of the mountains. could our heroes have misjudged pitch, therefore speed and performance?
Look, it is very easy to say: it was too high and too hot to fly. easy enough and possibly true. but let's examine everything and someone out there might learn something.
topics for discussion:
dry microbursts
thermals
engine controls
dust devils
I've not flown the Stinson "hot n'high", but the movement from fully rich to leaning for cruise is very small, and it *may* be leaned for best power. Or the pilot may have failed to do that necessary thing and can adds something else to his idiocy. In any case you can't actually see the mixture control during any part of the take-off roll, only during taxi, so I think that the case is unproven.
G
G
Moderator
could our heroes have misjudged pitch, therefore speed and performance?
If you don't lift the tail, it's akin to a three point takeoff, which equals a soft field technique in a tricycle, you'll still get airborne, if the plane is able.
Certainly examination of many characteristics broadens thinking, which is great. I've never heard of dry microbursts, so I'll stay clear of comment on those, though I have certainly experienced some [wet] ones from local cloud, and they are scary!
Thermals go up, so entering one of those can only help a climb.
Engine controls can certainly be set non optimally for certain conditions, and perhaps by not leaning the mixture there's a contribution there. It is unfortunate that pilot training has "everything full forward" for full power. Fine at sea level, but deceiving at altitude. I would hope that a pilot used to a high altitude airport would take the appropriate action - it's the sea level pilots who make that mistake once.
As for dust devils, well those I have seen are small, contain a lot of dust, and move horizontally. Not great to fly through, but easily seen and avoided, and really don't affect climb rate for more than a second or so.
I think the poor decision making is the prime factor here...
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sevenstrokerol
Sinking air yes that is something you have to be very aware of in mountain flying especially operating near terrain and slopes in low climb rate aircraft.
Twisters are something else and would be confined to a very small area.
While intense and able to break an aircraft the effect time wise would be small,
This was purely an aircraft attempting to take off too hot and too high and too heavy.
The thing didn't want to fly from word go and the pilot foolishly continued to struggle into the air.
After that he continued in the hope that he would climb!
Whether the actual descent into trees was caused by sinking air or rising terrain is not clear!
Blame lies squarely with the pilot and I find it hard to see how he could excuse this one as anything but diabolical pilot skills and decision making.
Btw I hate the misuse of the word HERO!
A Hero is someone who purposely and knowingly exposes themselves to risk to their own well being for the benefit of others not someone who is in a situation trying to save their own bacon with unwilling PAX at the mercy of his skills or in this case lack of skills and judgment.
Pace
Sinking air yes that is something you have to be very aware of in mountain flying especially operating near terrain and slopes in low climb rate aircraft.
Twisters are something else and would be confined to a very small area.
While intense and able to break an aircraft the effect time wise would be small,
This was purely an aircraft attempting to take off too hot and too high and too heavy.
The thing didn't want to fly from word go and the pilot foolishly continued to struggle into the air.
After that he continued in the hope that he would climb!
Whether the actual descent into trees was caused by sinking air or rising terrain is not clear!
Blame lies squarely with the pilot and I find it hard to see how he could excuse this one as anything but diabolical pilot skills and decision making.
Btw I hate the misuse of the word HERO!
A Hero is someone who purposely and knowingly exposes themselves to risk to their own well being for the benefit of others not someone who is in a situation trying to save their own bacon with unwilling PAX at the mercy of his skills or in this case lack of skills and judgment.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 11th Aug 2012 at 08:14.
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sound
Why are people complaining that the mic is picking up there screams and swearing?
Have you ever tried to have a conversation with your headsets off with full power set, what do you think the GoPro mic is going to pick up, the deafening engine or the quiet talking into a headset?
Anyway if you turn the volume up you can hear someone shouting just as they hit.
Think about it as well, the pilot is concentrating on trying to avoid the trees so he won't be talking, the passengers in the front seat and the back seats might not have much experience flying so maybe they think this is a stunt flying low by the experienced pilot in the left seat, with the two passengers in the rear not being able to see the view outside the front as well.
Have you ever tried to have a conversation with your headsets off with full power set, what do you think the GoPro mic is going to pick up, the deafening engine or the quiet talking into a headset?
Anyway if you turn the volume up you can hear someone shouting just as they hit.
Think about it as well, the pilot is concentrating on trying to avoid the trees so he won't be talking, the passengers in the front seat and the back seats might not have much experience flying so maybe they think this is a stunt flying low by the experienced pilot in the left seat, with the two passengers in the rear not being able to see the view outside the front as well.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G
The word Hero is becoming so misused by the media and press it does need clarification.
Even the very professional and skilled Captain who pulled off the water landing into the Hudson was not technically a Hero.
I could be the most skilled and capable racing driver in the world driving a car up a motorway when I experience a double blow out.
Due to those skills I manage to control the high speed car and safely bring it to rest on the hard shoulder. My passengers are at the mercy of me being able to save us all.
I am also part of this potential accident so NO hero! a very skilled driver maybe?
As the car comes to a stop I jump out and walk to the grass embankment! Getting there I turn around to see my three friends still in the car.
There is a whoosh and all of a sudden the car is engulfed in flames.
I rush back knowing the car could explode, ripping open the doors and pulling my friends out.
NOW I AM A HERO.
I feel the term is used to loosely and awards given for the wrong reasons.
I realize in this context he was being sarcastic but do not like the misuse of the term generally.
Pace
The word Hero is becoming so misused by the media and press it does need clarification.
Even the very professional and skilled Captain who pulled off the water landing into the Hudson was not technically a Hero.
I could be the most skilled and capable racing driver in the world driving a car up a motorway when I experience a double blow out.
Due to those skills I manage to control the high speed car and safely bring it to rest on the hard shoulder. My passengers are at the mercy of me being able to save us all.
I am also part of this potential accident so NO hero! a very skilled driver maybe?
As the car comes to a stop I jump out and walk to the grass embankment! Getting there I turn around to see my three friends still in the car.
There is a whoosh and all of a sudden the car is engulfed in flames.
I rush back knowing the car could explode, ripping open the doors and pulling my friends out.
NOW I AM A HERO.
I feel the term is used to loosely and awards given for the wrong reasons.
I realize in this context he was being sarcastic but do not like the misuse of the term generally.
Pace
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
As the car comes to a stop I jump out and walk to the grass embankment! Getting there I turn around to see my three friends still in the car.
There is a whoosh and all of a sudden the car is engulfed in flames.
I rush back knowing the car could explode, ripping open the doors and pulling my friends out.
NOW I AM A HERO.
There is a whoosh and all of a sudden the car is engulfed in flames.
I rush back knowing the car could explode, ripping open the doors and pulling my friends out.
NOW I AM A HERO.
Harnesses ...
Another aspect, having watched the video up-thread, I could not see harnesses being worn by front-seaters.
The Stinson may not have been originally equipped with.
Should be installable afterwards, not?
Might have saved the pilot some of his injuries.
Opinions anyone?
Thanks,
JR
The Stinson may not have been originally equipped with.
Should be installable afterwards, not?
Might have saved the pilot some of his injuries.
Opinions anyone?
Thanks,
JR
it distresses me to know that dry microbursts are not common knowledge.
The training that I've been exposed to covered all this but overall it is classified as windshear/microburst.
Dust devils - great fun! Just make sure you enter against the rotation at low level.
Thermals - don't get me started...
janrein - my Stinson has 3-point harnesses in the front seats; the original 1947 manual just says "each seat is equipped with a safety belt" but it's not possible to tell what form that originally took.
So I don't know what was original, but it's certainly possible to fit 3-point harnesses. Ours I'd say are at-least 20 years old.
At risk of stating the blindingly obvious, the airworthiness standards for light aeroplanes for at-least the last 30 years have mandated upper torso restraints in the front seat. That wasn't done for decoration - they're there because they improve safety (crashworthiness if you like).
G
So I don't know what was original, but it's certainly possible to fit 3-point harnesses. Ours I'd say are at-least 20 years old.
At risk of stating the blindingly obvious, the airworthiness standards for light aeroplanes for at-least the last 30 years have mandated upper torso restraints in the front seat. That wasn't done for decoration - they're there because they improve safety (crashworthiness if you like).
G
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G
You are much more qualified than me in crash worthiness
In front of a single engine piston is a bloody great piece of engine held to the airframe by a few tiny tubes and not a lot between that and you.
IE not built like a modern car with deformable structures and power units designed to drop down below the passenger compartment in the event of a head on! Little has changed in airframe design in 60 years.
In fact aircraft are very poorly designed for engineer access or crashes!
The killer is not being restrained by belts other than in light collisions but the fact that a massive piece of engine is likely to join you in the cockpit?? That big block of metal is not human friendly
In which case maybe the belt may be a hinderence
In that way twins are much safer as the power units are on the wings?
We consider the wearing of seat belts as we do with a car! In aircraft the benefits of containing you in a protective Cell as in a modern car are not there and as such the benefits of wearing a seat belt questionable
Pace
You are much more qualified than me in crash worthiness
In front of a single engine piston is a bloody great piece of engine held to the airframe by a few tiny tubes and not a lot between that and you.
IE not built like a modern car with deformable structures and power units designed to drop down below the passenger compartment in the event of a head on! Little has changed in airframe design in 60 years.
In fact aircraft are very poorly designed for engineer access or crashes!
The killer is not being restrained by belts other than in light collisions but the fact that a massive piece of engine is likely to join you in the cockpit?? That big block of metal is not human friendly
In which case maybe the belt may be a hinderence
In that way twins are much safer as the power units are on the wings?
We consider the wearing of seat belts as we do with a car! In aircraft the benefits of containing you in a protective Cell as in a modern car are not there and as such the benefits of wearing a seat belt questionable
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 11th Aug 2012 at 13:17.
There are minimum structural strength requirements there, in slightly simplistic terms the occupant and engine must not meet with less than 9g acceleration, whilst smaller point masses such as fire extinguishers need to be retained in at-least 15g.
Is a twin safer in that regard? Probably not to be honest. The engine will stop, or the front of the aeroplane will stop, then the occupants will keep going forward - hopefully being retained if the acceleration is below 9g. To put that in perspective,
But a harness is a good thing, because it does in that initial deceleration generally keep soft pink bodies and sharp and deforming bits of aircraft structure apart from each other (not least the yoke, which probably did much of the damage to this pilot).
What you don't want is anything heavy behind you, so pushers are not necessarily a good idea, nor are fuselage mounted fuel tanks.
Once all the bits have stopped moving, most experience is that there are big enough holes to get out of, and airworthiness standards do require harnesses to be releasable under load.
G
Is a twin safer in that regard? Probably not to be honest. The engine will stop, or the front of the aeroplane will stop, then the occupants will keep going forward - hopefully being retained if the acceleration is below 9g. To put that in perspective,
But a harness is a good thing, because it does in that initial deceleration generally keep soft pink bodies and sharp and deforming bits of aircraft structure apart from each other (not least the yoke, which probably did much of the damage to this pilot).
What you don't want is anything heavy behind you, so pushers are not necessarily a good idea, nor are fuselage mounted fuel tanks.
Once all the bits have stopped moving, most experience is that there are big enough holes to get out of, and airworthiness standards do require harnesses to be releasable under load.
G
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
G
Thanks for that
Bar room chat I had with some pilot friends concerning the benefits of belts in cars and aircraft so was interested in your expert view!
So really the benefits are more stopping you joining the engine rather than the engine joining you
As for the column another Cirrus benefit
Pace
Thanks for that
Bar room chat I had with some pilot friends concerning the benefits of belts in cars and aircraft so was interested in your expert view!So really the benefits are more stopping you joining the engine rather than the engine joining you
As for the column another Cirrus benefit
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 11th Aug 2012 at 13:36.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That is why I like modern composite airframes, ones with 25G cockpits and seats and airbags. These offer much more protection to the occupants than a 1947 thing.
Actually I just read the accident report of the DA40 and RV6 which collided at Shoreham a while back. It is quite a testament to the DA40 airframe that the wing was not really badly damaged after slicing off the tail of the RV6 and the effect of the big hole was just to increase drag slightly.
Actually I just read the accident report of the DA40 and RV6 which collided at Shoreham a while back. It is quite a testament to the DA40 airframe that the wing was not really badly damaged after slicing off the tail of the RV6 and the effect of the big hole was just to increase drag slightly.
Ah well, yes, there's another set of safety issues.
The first F117 to crash, most of the fire crew who attended it ended up being medically retired. The results of crushed and worse-still burning composite structure is unpleasantly similar to asbestos.
G
The first F117 to crash, most of the fire crew who attended it ended up being medically retired. The results of crushed and worse-still burning composite structure is unpleasantly similar to asbestos.
G
Moderator
The Stinson may not have been originally equipped with.
Should be installable afterwards, not?
Should be installable afterwards, not?
THe problems were found to be two: In a severe crash with big loads, it could get pinched so tight by resrating forces that the occupant no longer had the strenght to open the buckle. Secondly, if the cam pinched webbing got wet it would swell up and jam worse, again, the occupant could not open it.
In Canada, initiallty for flaotplanes, then soon for all planes, these fabric on metel seatbelts were prohibited. in favour of metel to metal.
Shoulder harnesses can be installed under AC43.13-2B as "specified data", and are vitally wise....
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Northampton
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My word...
I don't have the hours some have on here, but I have enough to self preserve and self criticize, and one of the things I've learnt, that my experience has given me, is to keep my mouth shut regarding the abilities of a fellow pilot who has 'gone down'.
It's fantastic to speculate about possibilities, that's how we get the mind working and learning, but come on, a bit of respect for a pilot who has been involved in a very traumatic experience, one which we have no solid knowledge about what caused it.
All we can do is theorize, so let's wait until the report before we question the pilot's personal skills/safety?
I don't have the hours some have on here, but I have enough to self preserve and self criticize, and one of the things I've learnt, that my experience has given me, is to keep my mouth shut regarding the abilities of a fellow pilot who has 'gone down'.
It's fantastic to speculate about possibilities, that's how we get the mind working and learning, but come on, a bit of respect for a pilot who has been involved in a very traumatic experience, one which we have no solid knowledge about what caused it.
All we can do is theorize, so let's wait until the report before we question the pilot's personal skills/safety?