Help Please - flying through and landing at Class B airport in the USA VFR

[Bearcat F8F]

Hi guys,

Could someone please talk me through step-by-step (if possible) as to how you can do the following 2 things in VFR:

a) Fly through Class B airspace

b) Land at a Class B airport

I will be doing some hour building in FL soon and once I rake some hours I would like to give the two things above a try. I'll be flying a C152 and I am not instrument rated.

The thing I am most curious about is how the ATC communications would look like? Do you HAVE to have flight following? And what sort of frequencies do you go through? I assume you can't just call tower and tell them you'll be there soon. Do they vector you in some sort of weird way so you don't cause chaos with all the heavy jets?

Thanks

[proudprivate]

You might want to listen to the Aviation Podcast by Jason Miller on Phoenix class B.

But in reality, there is not much too it. Call out approach control well in advance like you would for a class C airport CTR in Europe stating everything the controller needs to know (aircraft callsign, type, position, altitude, heading, destination) requesting class bravo transition. Then wait for the magic "Cleared through the Bravo airspace" sentence. Before that happens, be prepared to switch frequencies a lot, enter a squawk and keep your cool.

However, for a landing at a Bravo airport, you sure want to have the airport diagram ready and write down all the taxi instructions that follow once you are on the ground. Don't try to follow on the map, just read the taxi instructions back. "Request progressive taxi, unfamiliar with the airport" is not going to make you a lot of friends with O'Hare ground.

As for sequencing in with the jets, that really depends. They likely will make you fly holds or 360s and then request you fly your best approach (say 115 kts descent) speed until 1 mile final. It is a bad idea to try this at 7 AM or 4.30 PM.

I hope this alleviates your concerns. I'm assuming you are at least a PPL ? Otherwise you have to log ground instruction with a signoff related to the specific class bravo before you give it a try. Have fun.

[n5296s]

Do it with an instructor first. It's not realistic just to launch into US airspace and do just about the most complex thing there is, ATC wise. Class B clearances are easy, but one thing you can be sure of: if you mess it up or sound like you might, you will get a vector for the shortest way out of Class B and the instruction "remain clear of Class Bravo". This is not what you want to hear.

All Class B has an associated approach control. You will nearly always be talking to them first. You need to be familiar with the transitions available - which isn't always documented. Another reason you need to to do it with an instructor. For example at SFO you will usually get "remain south and west of the Bayshore Freeway". You need to know what that means - if you say "unfamiliar" you will get "remain clear...". They're happy to let you in and even arrange jet traffic around you (the other day a Jetblue 320 was held below me for 30 seconds or so) but the last thing they need is you messing things up for them by not following their instructions. And they are WAY too busy to vector you.

So, you contact Aproach on the freq shown on the Terminal chart, and you say "Nxxx 200o' VFR Petaluma request Bayshore transition northbound" (or whatever). They'll give you a squawk and a routing and the magic phrase "cleared into Class Bravo". If they don't say that, you should - you want it on the tape. But you need to be prepared for "remain clear of Class Bravo, state your intentions" - so you always need a Plan B.

If you're actually planning to land at the Class B airport, they'll let you in (unless you sound hopeless on the radio). Be aware that this will cost you - at least an FBO handling fee, and maybe (as at SFO) a fee to the airport itself too. (I've never landed at SFO because it would cost me ~$400, though I've been into other Class B airports). They'll vector you around to fit you in with the traffic. Even LAX is quiet compared to LHR (maybe JFK isn't, but honestly, just don't go there).

Do it with an instructor first and you'll have plenty of fun.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Apologies if the question is stupid - what's a Class B airport? Sounds like an a/d whose CTR is class B airspace? Or do they actually have airport classification across the pond?

[mm_flynn]

It is shorthand for describing the airport whose traffic resulted in the Class B airspace being created. The inverted wedding cake will be centred on this airport.

[IanSeager]

I was playing around with an NFlightCam and recorded a VRF flight into Orlando International, I'm pretty sure that I got most of the RT. Hope it helps.

Ian

[Pilot.Lyons]

Would have been better without the irritating music behind it making it a bit unclear

[IanSeager]

Sorry :-(

Ian

[Bearcat F8F]

Thanks for the help guys. Much more clear now but there's still a few things I would like to sort out. Lets assume we are landing at Orlando International (KMCO):

1) There's 7 approach frequencies for KMCO. I know if I had flight following then they would just hand me off to the correct controller so it wouldn't be a problem. But what if I don't have flight following? How do I know which approach frequency to pick?

2) What are the ATC comms like all the way from initial contact to the landing clearance? Do they give you altitude and heading directions before they hand you off to tower?

3) Should you try to contact approach before you fly into the 30nm vail or just when you are outside the boundary of the Class B airspace?

proudprivate, thanks for the podcast. It sounds almost too simple there. It sounded like they didn't really care where exactly you transitioned. The only instruction was to hold and maintain 8500. And yes, I have a PPL.

Ian, I don't think you have much of the RT in there. Just the hand-off to the tower.

[proudprivate]

1) There's 7 approach frequencies for KMCO. I know if I had flight following then they would just hand me off to the correct controller so it wouldn't be a problem. But what if I don't have flight following? How do I know which approach frequency to pick?

I think they are listed in the Airport Facility Directory with explanations which approach controller frequency works for which area. Don't have that publication ready, but I would take guidance from the STAR descriptions. So coming from the South West I would give 134.05 a try, coming from the South East I would call 125.55, etc...

2) What are the ATC comms like all the way from initial contact to the landing clearance? Do they give you altitude and heading directions before they hand you off to tower?

Yes they normally do.

3) Should you try to contact approach before you fly into the 30nm vail or just when you are outside the boundary of the Class B airspace?

Depends on the altitude and the shape of the Class B airspace. I would recommend calling them 5-10 minutes out (so around 10-15 NM in a C152).

Although the AIM doesn't give you precise instructions on when to call out, you might want to read up on specific sections of the AIM (related to R/T and safety) or get a good instructor briefing before trying it.

It sounds almost too simple there. It sounded like they didn't really care where exactly you transitioned. The only instruction was to hold and maintain 8500.

It can get hairy too, in the sense that you get passed around to 3 different control frequencies with the third one passing you back to the first. That's the time to be assertive (while remaining polite ).

Also, if you're at 2000 ft, you're much more likely to get vectored around / out than if you ask a transition at 8000 ft (where they have more room to manoeuvre you).

[B2N2]

All of the above plus YouTube is your friend:

Class B Airspace Clearance Part 1 - YouTube

Class B Airspace Clearance Part 2 - YouTube

You'll be flying out of Miami Class B right?
Spend a couple of hours listening to this:
Airport Detail: KMIA | LiveATC.net

Make sure you come and visit me on one of your trips....

[IanSeager]

Ian, I don't think you have much of the RT in there. Just the hand-off to the tower.

OK, I would have called approach and probably said something like "Cirrus XXXX 15nm SW inbound for landing" - I can't remember exactly, so either I am getting older than I thought, or it wasn't at all traumatic, I'm going with the latter.

If you take a look at Skyvector.com there's an approach frequency given on the sectional fro aircraft under 3,500' - that seems like a good place to start, but the AFD may well give different frequencies for different sectors.

I have flown into and out of a few class B airports and some are easier (by which I mean busier) than others. Orlando is generally fine, although I there's a ramp fee ($10, $25?) at the FBO if you don't take any fuel.

Ian

[LTCTerry]

Class B

I needed to go to Charlotte, North Carolina once and chose to fly to a nearby airport. I called the FBO and asked about a courtesy car. I received the advice that I should just fly into CLT.

It turned out to be easier than I would have imagined. At the time I may have had 150 hours. If I remember correctly I contacted CLT approach about 20 miles before the 30NM Mode C veil. I was vectored and eventually "cleared to enter Class B airspace." More vectors and I was taxiing to the general aviation terminal. No landing fee.

During my IFR training I twice flew over the Atlanta, Georgia airport at 5,000'. Each flight was north-south and the then four, now five, runways are on an east-west orientation. I'm not sure it would have worked so well if I flown any closer to the intence airline traffic. Certainly NOT going to pay the incredible landing fee there!

I would second the suggestion of flying with a CFI (Certificated Flight Instructor v. "Chief...")

Hope this helps; enjoy the flight(s)!

Terry

[dont overfil]

Thankfully they are not all as fast as that tower controller at KMCO.

Was he taking the P**s just because he heard an English accent?

D.O.

[Bearcat F8F]

Thanks for the replies. Just so I know I got this right, here's all the approach frequencies for Orlando International:

119.4(181-310 5500 & BLO) 119.475(061-180 4500 & BLO) 120.15(181-359 ABOVE 5500) 121.1(311-060 5500 & BLO) 284.7(181-359 ABOVE 5500) 351.9(311-060 5500 & BLO)

I assume "(181-310 5500 & BLO)" means from 181 degrees to 310 degrees at 5500ft or below. Are the degrees measure when your aircraft is heading towards the center of Class B airport?

You'll be flying out of Miami Class B right?

Fort Lauderdale Executive. To go anywhere south I would have to transition through Miami Class B unless I want to burn some extra fuel and fly around it - this option isn't challenging enough for my liking.

I have flown into and out of a few class B airports and some are easier (by which I mean busier) than others. Orlando is generally fine, although I there's a ramp fee ($10, $25?) at the FBO if you don't take any fuel.

Are you sure? I looked up all the airport info on skyvector and A/FD and it doesn't mention any landing fees for Orlando or Tampa. But it does for Miami.

[david viewing]

You asked about flight following being required for a class B entry. No it is not, although as you observe it can be a good idea.

Two snags with flight following: a) they might dump you at an inconvenient moment approaching a busy area, especially if low level and they lose radar contact. b) It can be difficult closing a VFR FPL while listening to a busy center frequency whilst juggling box1/box2. But none of this is advice against using FF if it works for you.

If unsure about approach frequencies etc then you can always call Flight Service Statiomn (FSS) and "request frequency for xx approach in this area" or similar. FSS frequencies are shown on the chart adjacent to VOR's and it's usually helpful to append "calling on 122.4 near Drake" or whatever it is so they know which outlet you are using. (Okay they have lights for that but it often speeds up the response). FSS are uniformly helpful in my experience. You hear pilots asking questions that suggest they don't actually have a map in the plane and yet they are always courteous.

FSS will also close your VFR FPL and my practice is to do this before calling the class B controller because you won't get a chance afterwards and once on the ground you might forget due excitement/distraction etc. I know about this! Approach and tower controllers will not close FPL's. If you do find yourself on the ground at a class B airport and delayed taxying there's often a local FSS frequency that works, however.

When going to a big airport always know and write down on your kneepad the name of FBO you are going to. Nothing sets off a ground controller more than a pilot who asks for a reccomendation! I know about that as well.

As for class B itself they vary and some, like LAX, can be quite stressful. Others, like Las Vegas, are low key and used to tourists. The magic ingredient is the Terminal Area Chart. Be sure to have one of these for any class B you are entering and don't just rely on the sectional. Study and memorise as much as possible, especially the VFR routes and the VRP's.

Regarding VRP's they can be confusing to a stranger in a busy cityscape and this is a good time to trust your GPS (or DME if you have one) before reporting because the airport/freeway intersection you are looking for might be another one a bit further on. Apparent distances can be highly misleading out there.

All this said, nothing beats a solid briefing from a locally based instructor.

Hope that helps. Class B in FAA land is nothing like as intimidating as some mickey mouse airspace in UK (like LBA) and private pilots have a right, not a 'privelege', to be there - as long as they know the rules.

[Bearcat F8F]

If unsure about approach frequencies etc then you can always call Flight Service Statiomn (FSS) and "request frequency for xx approach in this area" or similar. FSS frequencies are shown on the chart adjacent to VOR's and it's usually helpful to append "calling on 122.4 near Drake" or whatever it is so they know which outlet you are using. (Okay they have lights for that but it often speeds up the response). FSS are uniformly helpful in my experience. You hear pilots asking questions that suggest they don't actually have a map in the plane and yet they are always courteous.

Thanks. I had no idea about this service. I'll be sure to remember this!

As for class B itself they vary and some, like LAX, can be quite stressful. Others, like Las Vegas, are low key and used to tourists. The magic ingredient is the Terminal Area Chart. Be sure to have one of these for any class B you are entering and don't just rely on the sectional. Study and memorise as much as possible, especially the VFR routes and the VRP's.

Ok, this I am still a little confused about. What are the "VFR routes"? I can't find anything obvious on the terminal area chart (Miami is the one I am looking at atm). I will make sure to memorise the VRPs though.

Thanks for the help

[Mark 1]

For LAX the special routes are printed on the left side of the TAC.

Look up KLAX on skyvector.com, select the TAC and scroll over to the left and you will see them.

[Bearcat F8F]

For LAX the special routes are printed on the left side of the TAC.

Look up KLAX on skyvector.com, select the TAC and scroll over to the left and you will see them.

Yes I found them for LAX but the TAC for Miami and Orlando doesn't show any VFR routes. Maybe because there's less commercial traffic? So I guess the controllers will just tell us the headings we need to fly and that's it?

[IanSeager]

Are you sure? I looked up all the airport info on skyvector and A/FD and it doesn't mention any landing fees for Orlando or Tampa. But it does for Miami.

It's a ramp fee not a landing fee and it comes from the FBO (Galaxy I think). I am fairly sure, although I guess they may have dropped it over the last year. It is waived if you take some fuel (can't remember how much).

Ian