Glider pilots: How often do you train your rope breaks?
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Many, many years ago I flew at Staffordshire Gliding Club when the club site was located at a place called Morridge (on the Stafforshire Moorlands near Leek)
The ground between the winch sites and launch sites was so poor (uneven and boggy) that normal cable recovery by tractor was near impossible so there was a retreive cable to haul the main cable back to the lauch site.
This also meant that a straight ahead landing from a low cable break was to be avoided at all cost. If memory serves correct the pre-flight mnemonic was CB SIT CB
C - Controls full and free movment
B - Brakes retracted and locked
S - Straps
I - Instruments
T - Trim
and ...
CB ... cable break ....
As I say we had very good reason not to want to experience a low straight ahead break, so the cable break consideration was drummed in from the outset, is this familiar to anyone else??
I've just worked out that that I've trawled back 37-38 years to remember this ... I'm not sure if it was the mnemonic that was so good or that the conseqences of getting it worng were so bad ... but I do remember it!
The ground between the winch sites and launch sites was so poor (uneven and boggy) that normal cable recovery by tractor was near impossible so there was a retreive cable to haul the main cable back to the lauch site.
This also meant that a straight ahead landing from a low cable break was to be avoided at all cost. If memory serves correct the pre-flight mnemonic was CB SIT CB
C - Controls full and free movment
B - Brakes retracted and locked
S - Straps
I - Instruments
T - Trim
and ...
CB ... cable break ....
As I say we had very good reason not to want to experience a low straight ahead break, so the cable break consideration was drummed in from the outset, is this familiar to anyone else??
I've just worked out that that I've trawled back 37-38 years to remember this ... I'm not sure if it was the mnemonic that was so good or that the conseqences of getting it worng were so bad ... but I do remember it!
Actually the last CB was
Canopy locked
Brakes closed and locked
The first B was Ballast (cokpit load in limits, with fixed ballast added as required).
E (for eventualites) got tagged on the the end, for actions including, but not limited to, cable breaks.
Canopy locked
Brakes closed and locked
The first B was Ballast (cokpit load in limits, with fixed ballast added as required).
E (for eventualites) got tagged on the the end, for actions including, but not limited to, cable breaks.
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Baby Bear, your commendable caution on undesirable attitudes when winch launching reminded me of my week of instructor completion under the wise guidance of Chris Rollings. Never, said he, let your glider while going up the wire assume an angle so steep that you would not be happy were the cable to break. Likewise, latest BGA advice, and this I agree with, is no longer to signal too fast, the glider is not stressed during the early part of the launch even if it is faster than comfortable. If things don't improve after half way up, just release and land (and communicate with the winch driver appropriately). As for signal "too slow", well, lower the nose, my dear, and if the winch driver doesn't get the message, time to release. They usually do get the message.
Here is a question I put to those who began gliding at a winch site, and wish to learn the aerotow:
Q. What is the most important difference between a winch launch and an airtow?
A. It is really difficult to kill a winch driver.
Here is a question I put to those who began gliding at a winch site, and wish to learn the aerotow:
Q. What is the most important difference between a winch launch and an airtow?
A. It is really difficult to kill a winch driver.
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Originally Posted by mary meagher
Never, said he, let your glider while going up the wire assume an angle so steep that you would not be happy were the cable to break.
BB
I speak as a novice with few solo flights in single seaters.
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CB SIT SB...up slack...all out.
Wow memories... 1970 South Marsdon, I remember just making it over the bank in a K13 after my bronze C!
Instructor called Eric Winning, anyone know him?
Wow memories... 1970 South Marsdon, I remember just making it over the bank in a K13 after my bronze C!
Instructor called Eric Winning, anyone know him?
Last edited by funfly; 7th Aug 2012 at 22:57.
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Just to correct two earlier answers:
No, there is no UK official (i.e. CAA or EASA) gliding licence. Under EASA, there will be but it is not yet here.
The BGA issues a licence upon request, but it has no official standing and is not obligatory for any level of flying, not even instructing.
Nor is there a legal requirement for a medical, AFAIK. The BGA has standards which have to be met by its member clubs and people who fly under their auspices, and AFAIK all BGA member clubs adhere to that or more, but there is no legal requirement for a club to belong to the BGA and any outside the BGA may not have that standard, or any standard, of medical. (And yes, there have often been, and may now be, one or more civilian gliding operations not in membership of the BGA. Again, under EASA, I think that may not be possible much longer.)
(By the way, my personal answer to the OP – several practice launch failures each year, usually. And occasionally a real one. Almost all winch, but I had one aerotow failure – rope came away from tug.)
Chris N.
No, there is no UK official (i.e. CAA or EASA) gliding licence. Under EASA, there will be but it is not yet here.
The BGA issues a licence upon request, but it has no official standing and is not obligatory for any level of flying, not even instructing.
Nor is there a legal requirement for a medical, AFAIK. The BGA has standards which have to be met by its member clubs and people who fly under their auspices, and AFAIK all BGA member clubs adhere to that or more, but there is no legal requirement for a club to belong to the BGA and any outside the BGA may not have that standard, or any standard, of medical. (And yes, there have often been, and may now be, one or more civilian gliding operations not in membership of the BGA. Again, under EASA, I think that may not be possible much longer.)
(By the way, my personal answer to the OP – several practice launch failures each year, usually. And occasionally a real one. Almost all winch, but I had one aerotow failure – rope came away from tug.)
Chris N.
It would be really peculiar to handle wire on airtow....though I am unfamiliar with those gadgets that retract the rope (?) after the glider lets go.....seems to me to add unnecessary complication, one more piece of machinery to fail, instead of occasionally dragging the tow rope through the hedge on return to the field.
We have those gadgets on all our towplanes. They have nylon rope. They are wonderful. I heard we got them at harris hill because we did score a glancing blow to somebody's head with a tow ring. Scary stuff, there. At the end of the field is a road, a parking area, and swings so people can look out over the valley. When the gadgets occasionally break, we have to use an old fixed rope. When I land over the people, I stay at least 200' high until I am at least 200' past them, then it is a pedal to the floor slip. We only have 1115' of pavement there, and some grass before. Not having to play those games makes the operation safer and more enjoyable, especially after a few hours of heavy towing, when fatigue starts to set in.
Some pictues of where the swings live are here:
Flying harris Hill
Look where the road crosses in front of the field.
IFMU
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Harris Hill Gliderport, Elmira, New York State details
IFMU, thank you for your reply, especially the attachment showing Harris Hill near Elmira - the very birthplace of American gliding, I am told!
Recommend all you guys have a look at it! Clearly the grid of 50+gliders is set up for a competition, probably a National comp? and probably at least 6 towplanes as well, to make sure the entire grid is launched in an hour - unless there are two classes, which makes life a little easier except that whichever class is launched last will get grumpy if they miss the best weather!
The cooperation in the US with local ATC for both gliders and GA is truly heartwarming, especially compared with the curious reluctance of the British to permit GA into controlled airpace....over here we are funneled into tight little corridors of free space. (OK, its a very small island, during the Olympics, even smaller, it seems..)
But for all that, gliding in the UK and in Europe is much more popular than in the US; we have to thank the Germans for that, as the restrictions on flying power during the 30's in that country caused accelerated development of sailplanes, and these days the truly hot ships in general production are still from Europe rather than the US. I bet most of the gliders in that photo of the grid on Harris Hill are European.....
Incidentally, good thing you have that extra airstrip available at the bottom of the hill....only way to keep a farmer sweet if gliders keep arriving is to buy a piece of his farm, and I bet he got a good price for it!
When planning your gliding club, my own personal theory is, it should not be at the top of the hill, like Long Mynd. Nor at the bottom of the hill, like Dunstable, but half way up the hill, like Talgarth (Black Mountains gliding club in Wales). Very very much worth a visit, all you sailplane pilots, for rock polishing, go to Wales.
Top of the hill attracts cloud cover. Bottom of the hill - hill gets too crowded, attracts hang gliders etc and sometimes fog from the valley delays
operations.
Recommend all you guys have a look at it! Clearly the grid of 50+gliders is set up for a competition, probably a National comp? and probably at least 6 towplanes as well, to make sure the entire grid is launched in an hour - unless there are two classes, which makes life a little easier except that whichever class is launched last will get grumpy if they miss the best weather!
The cooperation in the US with local ATC for both gliders and GA is truly heartwarming, especially compared with the curious reluctance of the British to permit GA into controlled airpace....over here we are funneled into tight little corridors of free space. (OK, its a very small island, during the Olympics, even smaller, it seems..)
But for all that, gliding in the UK and in Europe is much more popular than in the US; we have to thank the Germans for that, as the restrictions on flying power during the 30's in that country caused accelerated development of sailplanes, and these days the truly hot ships in general production are still from Europe rather than the US. I bet most of the gliders in that photo of the grid on Harris Hill are European.....
Incidentally, good thing you have that extra airstrip available at the bottom of the hill....only way to keep a farmer sweet if gliders keep arriving is to buy a piece of his farm, and I bet he got a good price for it!
When planning your gliding club, my own personal theory is, it should not be at the top of the hill, like Long Mynd. Nor at the bottom of the hill, like Dunstable, but half way up the hill, like Talgarth (Black Mountains gliding club in Wales). Very very much worth a visit, all you sailplane pilots, for rock polishing, go to Wales.
Top of the hill attracts cloud cover. Bottom of the hill - hill gets too crowded, attracts hang gliders etc and sometimes fog from the valley delays
operations.
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Originally Posted by ChrisN
Nor is there a legal requirement for a medical, AFAIK.
BB
Crash One,
Add on the rest of Europe & there must be at least a million winch launches a year using these weak links, maybe 2 million. They are produced by an engineering company & I have no doubt that factors such as work hardening will have been taken into account during their design & manufacture.
Add on the rest of Europe & there must be at least a million winch launches a year using these weak links, maybe 2 million. They are produced by an engineering company & I have no doubt that factors such as work hardening will have been taken into account during their design & manufacture.
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Then why suggeast that they break more easily when new than after work hardening?
They should be consistent. & I don't give a **** how many launches worldwide.
Consistency & designed to break at a particular tension is what they are designed for.
If "some" last longer after they are "worked in" that is, in my opinion rubbish. You cannot control the degree of work hardening except perhaps in laboratory conditions.
They should be consistent. & I don't give a **** how many launches worldwide.
Consistency & designed to break at a particular tension is what they are designed for.
If "some" last longer after they are "worked in" that is, in my opinion rubbish. You cannot control the degree of work hardening except perhaps in laboratory conditions.
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Work hardening involves permanent plastic deformation of the material. Do the weak links deform over time? That can't be a good plan in itself, apart from the implied variation of the breaking force.
What alloy are they made from? Almost all metal alloys exhibit some amount of work hardening, but whether or not it is significant will depend on what the material is.
H (once upon a time a metallurgist)
ps edited to add: this web site has details of weak links etc TOST TOW RELEASE I note that the specified link breaking forces have a plus or minus 10% allowance, so the variation observed in use attributed to work hardening could still be within tolerance if the original as manufactured tolerances were much better than this. I'd expect the glider pilot and launch crew to notice a 10% increase in strength of the weak link, so maybe both sides of this argument are right. H
What alloy are they made from? Almost all metal alloys exhibit some amount of work hardening, but whether or not it is significant will depend on what the material is.
H (once upon a time a metallurgist)
ps edited to add: this web site has details of weak links etc TOST TOW RELEASE I note that the specified link breaking forces have a plus or minus 10% allowance, so the variation observed in use attributed to work hardening could still be within tolerance if the original as manufactured tolerances were much better than this. I'd expect the glider pilot and launch crew to notice a 10% increase in strength of the weak link, so maybe both sides of this argument are right. H
Last edited by Heston; 8th Aug 2012 at 10:38.
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Crash One
A quick look at the load tables on the Tost web sites show that their range of weak links have a quoted breaking strain plus or minus 10% and they recommend that they are replaced after 200 launches.
This would suggest that up to 200 launches the link will break within its stated design parameters and thus the glider is not at risk
Home AGB Impressum
A quick look at the load tables on the Tost web sites show that their range of weak links have a quoted breaking strain plus or minus 10% and they recommend that they are replaced after 200 launches.
This would suggest that up to 200 launches the link will break within its stated design parameters and thus the glider is not at risk
Home AGB Impressum
Weak Links
Crash One wrote:
The fact is that all materials have their own idiosyncrasies. Hang glider fliers often use a length of thin cord as a weak link when winching, but this can deteriorate with UV light, get chafed and the type of knot used can affect the failure load.
The properties of steel have been well researched, and the raw material is produced by very tightly controlled processes, so despite its tendency for work hardening, it is still a good material for the job.
A work hardened weak link will still be below its ultimate tensile strength, but perhaps 5 to 10% stronger than a new one. According to the table below, a black weak link of minimum strength (900daN) could work harden to 1100daN (22% increase) and still be in specification. Going the other way, launching on a weak link only 82% of the strength of the previous one is a good recipe for a cable break.
Once a weak link is taken beyond its ultimate tensile strength, necking will occur at the eventual failure point. If this is observed on an unbroken weak link, it is definitely time to change it as the load is now being transmitted through a smaller area. Tensile test and Stress-Strain Diagram [SubsTech]
With regard to breaking other bits of the glider or ripping the hook out, you need to compare the relative cross-sections of the components. The weak link has a very small cross-sectional area in comparison to the components in the glider and the winch cable.
Below are a selection of weak links and their breaking loads. Not all will be from the same thickness material, so some of the weaker ones may have smaller holes at the failure point than stronger ones.
What is very important is the surface finish on the walls of the centre hole (at which it is designed to fail). It must be reamed, as a drilled hole could fail over a much greater range of loads.
Davydine, I would love to know how many clubs keep an accurate record of the number of launches that each weak link has done. Getting people to sign the winch daily inspection log is hard enough!
Something lacking in the design department here. If they survive & become work hardened they are no longer the "weak" link they are supposed to be. How could one be re-calibrated to the next strength up? Prob impossible without breaking it to find out.
If weak links are designed like this then they are worthless, dangerous, chance of ripping the tow hook out of the glider. I would suggest some thought be put into them.
I believe they are just a short length of steel plate of varying thickness to suit the weight required. Bad idea.
If weak links are designed like this then they are worthless, dangerous, chance of ripping the tow hook out of the glider. I would suggest some thought be put into them.
I believe they are just a short length of steel plate of varying thickness to suit the weight required. Bad idea.
The properties of steel have been well researched, and the raw material is produced by very tightly controlled processes, so despite its tendency for work hardening, it is still a good material for the job.
A work hardened weak link will still be below its ultimate tensile strength, but perhaps 5 to 10% stronger than a new one. According to the table below, a black weak link of minimum strength (900daN) could work harden to 1100daN (22% increase) and still be in specification. Going the other way, launching on a weak link only 82% of the strength of the previous one is a good recipe for a cable break.
Once a weak link is taken beyond its ultimate tensile strength, necking will occur at the eventual failure point. If this is observed on an unbroken weak link, it is definitely time to change it as the load is now being transmitted through a smaller area. Tensile test and Stress-Strain Diagram [SubsTech]
With regard to breaking other bits of the glider or ripping the hook out, you need to compare the relative cross-sections of the components. The weak link has a very small cross-sectional area in comparison to the components in the glider and the winch cable.
Below are a selection of weak links and their breaking loads. Not all will be from the same thickness material, so some of the weaker ones may have smaller holes at the failure point than stronger ones.
What is very important is the surface finish on the walls of the centre hole (at which it is designed to fail). It must be reamed, as a drilled hole could fail over a much greater range of loads.
Davydine, I would love to know how many clubs keep an accurate record of the number of launches that each weak link has done. Getting people to sign the winch daily inspection log is hard enough!
Last edited by Mechta; 8th Aug 2012 at 11:47.
Yes there have been cases of winch hooks being pulled out.
My old club had two whilst I was a member - the second was a smelly French Side by side two seater.
Fortunately safety has increased in the UK.
Several years ago I penned a letter for S&G which started along the lines of accident.... Or culperable homicide .... after I read of two more avoidable deaths.
Of course I was ignored, so the letter was forwarded to a member of the executive who adopted the same stance as my club's chairman that the clubs which had a high accident rate would be forced by their insurance provider to change their operations.
The problems were centred around poor instruction and fear.
Fortunately someone in the BGA realised that we couldn't go on killing people and an excellent new guide to winch launching was published.
This dispelled many myths and restored my faith that there are intelligent people in flying who are willing to stick their necks out.
What we used to teach was to signal if you were too fast below 300ft - suicidal and also demonstrated a lack of knowledge of stresses and winching techniques.
Too fast and too much initial rotation to reduce over speeding.
Pole bending was derigeur.
And off course hanging on with a ridiculously low speed at the top of the launch.
I didn't understand winch launching until I had attended an ass cat course, instructed for six months and had a serious think about proceedures.
My last day running my old club I watched a trail lesson very nearly crash after a wing drop. My CFI ignored my complaint that it is unacceptable for a pilot to continue the launch with a wing tip on the ground.
Needless to say I quit the club.
Annual checks required several cable breaks which progressed to a low one around 400ft.
What wasn't done by some instructors was the bunny hop - because of the risks involved. The jury is out on that one as far as I am concerned - primarily as have carried out some extremely dangerous training exercises in my flying career which have now been discontinued.
In the states they have a stupid proceedure of getting the aero tow rope over the wing inflight...
And in france they do a return to ground whilst on aero tow.
Safe flying....
My old club had two whilst I was a member - the second was a smelly French Side by side two seater.
Fortunately safety has increased in the UK.
Several years ago I penned a letter for S&G which started along the lines of accident.... Or culperable homicide .... after I read of two more avoidable deaths.
Of course I was ignored, so the letter was forwarded to a member of the executive who adopted the same stance as my club's chairman that the clubs which had a high accident rate would be forced by their insurance provider to change their operations.
The problems were centred around poor instruction and fear.
Fortunately someone in the BGA realised that we couldn't go on killing people and an excellent new guide to winch launching was published.
This dispelled many myths and restored my faith that there are intelligent people in flying who are willing to stick their necks out.
What we used to teach was to signal if you were too fast below 300ft - suicidal and also demonstrated a lack of knowledge of stresses and winching techniques.
Too fast and too much initial rotation to reduce over speeding.
Pole bending was derigeur.
And off course hanging on with a ridiculously low speed at the top of the launch.
I didn't understand winch launching until I had attended an ass cat course, instructed for six months and had a serious think about proceedures.
My last day running my old club I watched a trail lesson very nearly crash after a wing drop. My CFI ignored my complaint that it is unacceptable for a pilot to continue the launch with a wing tip on the ground.
Needless to say I quit the club.
Annual checks required several cable breaks which progressed to a low one around 400ft.
What wasn't done by some instructors was the bunny hop - because of the risks involved. The jury is out on that one as far as I am concerned - primarily as have carried out some extremely dangerous training exercises in my flying career which have now been discontinued.
In the states they have a stupid proceedure of getting the aero tow rope over the wing inflight...
And in france they do a return to ground whilst on aero tow.
Safe flying....
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Hey, Blind Pew, your caveat has been recognised as correct; the latest word from the British Gliding Association is begin a winch launch with the left hand lightly holding the release....and if a wing drops - even before it touches the ground, RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Which can prevent the painful possibility of a cartwheel, with fatal consequence.
Likewise, polebending is no longer considered sensible. See quote from Rollings on my previous post. Likewise, signaling too fast - also far more dangerous than accepting increased speed and departing the wire before the top of the launch.
Slow speed at the top of the launch....yes, time to leave, and also DON'T TURN until correct speed indicated on the ASI. Happier now?
I think that the wing drop problem is not the same on aerotow, if you have a nose hook on your glider, as the glider will usually straighten up OK once you get going. Ever land out in a field with nobody to hold the wingtip? the outcome is interesting: having been told by the tuggie to put THAT wing down before the launch, I did, and of course as soon as he increased power, the torque decided that the other wing looked better on the ground.. No problem, however, with a nosehook glider it all straightens out with no tendency to cartwheel.
Be interesting to hear from other glider pilots or tuggies on this question..
All the kerfluffle from the techies about differing breaking strengths of weak links...and the surprising information that a weak link gets STRONGER? with use? until it breaks, of course! I would say if the glider pilot relies on infalible weak links, he is seriously in need of launch failure practice, as recommended by the original poster.
Winch launches are spectacular, exciting, and can prove fatal. Yet a study of the points raised by Blind Pew, and eventually recognised as dangerous practice by the BGA, have resulted in recent years in the UK by far fewer horrible winch accidents. The only horrible thing I can think of now not covered by latest best practice, would be a hangup - which is rare indeed.
Anybody know about any hangups in the last 10 years? attributable to weak links getting stronger?
Likewise, polebending is no longer considered sensible. See quote from Rollings on my previous post. Likewise, signaling too fast - also far more dangerous than accepting increased speed and departing the wire before the top of the launch.
Slow speed at the top of the launch....yes, time to leave, and also DON'T TURN until correct speed indicated on the ASI. Happier now?
I think that the wing drop problem is not the same on aerotow, if you have a nose hook on your glider, as the glider will usually straighten up OK once you get going. Ever land out in a field with nobody to hold the wingtip? the outcome is interesting: having been told by the tuggie to put THAT wing down before the launch, I did, and of course as soon as he increased power, the torque decided that the other wing looked better on the ground.. No problem, however, with a nosehook glider it all straightens out with no tendency to cartwheel.
Be interesting to hear from other glider pilots or tuggies on this question..
All the kerfluffle from the techies about differing breaking strengths of weak links...and the surprising information that a weak link gets STRONGER? with use? until it breaks, of course! I would say if the glider pilot relies on infalible weak links, he is seriously in need of launch failure practice, as recommended by the original poster.
Winch launches are spectacular, exciting, and can prove fatal. Yet a study of the points raised by Blind Pew, and eventually recognised as dangerous practice by the BGA, have resulted in recent years in the UK by far fewer horrible winch accidents. The only horrible thing I can think of now not covered by latest best practice, would be a hangup - which is rare indeed.
Anybody know about any hangups in the last 10 years? attributable to weak links getting stronger?
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Mechta,
LOL, yes I can imagine, it's been a long time since I flew gliders but I am pretty sure that no one ever kept a track of how many launches a weak link did. Would be pretty hard given how often the link gets changed for a different colour when there are several different types of glider being launched.
On reflection I wonder how many weak links last as long as 200 launches and how many clubs routinely replace all of their weak links.
LOL, yes I can imagine, it's been a long time since I flew gliders but I am pretty sure that no one ever kept a track of how many launches a weak link did. Would be pretty hard given how often the link gets changed for a different colour when there are several different types of glider being launched.
On reflection I wonder how many weak links last as long as 200 launches and how many clubs routinely replace all of their weak links.
Mary,
Winch launching accidents have reduced, but there is still room for improvement.
The emphasis to date has been on regular refresher training for pilots, teaching them to cope with cable breaks, wing drops and incorrect winch speed. The other person in the loop, the winch driver, should be the next point of focus. How many clubs really train their winch drivers to cope with the 'out of the ordinary' beyond a verbal description of what to do? Winches are quite capable of maiming and killing with or without a glider involved.
Winch launching accidents have reduced, but there is still room for improvement.
The emphasis to date has been on regular refresher training for pilots, teaching them to cope with cable breaks, wing drops and incorrect winch speed. The other person in the loop, the winch driver, should be the next point of focus. How many clubs really train their winch drivers to cope with the 'out of the ordinary' beyond a verbal description of what to do? Winches are quite capable of maiming and killing with or without a glider involved.
Last edited by Mechta; 8th Aug 2012 at 13:53.