R112: Are you going?
Joined: Oct 2011
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From: South-East, United Kingdom
I am not convinced that doing that will get you a "narrow route briefing" that uses those airfield IDs as waypoints.
The other day I flew up to Walney Island (near Lake District), and because in that instance I had listed IFR waypoints and VOR's on my VFR flight plan, and because I was announcing and flying flight levels, the Doncaster contollers allowed me to transit their class D airspace. This was easier than ducking below the CAS and popping back up the other side en route. Subtle evidence that as you say, you might get a little bit more help from ATC if they think you wont interfere with other aircraft under their control.
Joined: Dec 2011
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Absolutely so 
Nowadays I fly mostly IFR when I go abroad, because it's so much easier to plan, but when I used to fly VFR I used to file e.g. UK to Croatia, one leg, FL075, and when I turned up at KONAN at FL075 (cough cough FL074 really, probably) and got handed to Brussels Radar (or whatever) and gave them the next few waypoints, they just let me fly straight through the whole country - just like IFR traffic. OK, transiting Belgium takes only about 3 minutes
but I got the same over Germany, etc.
VMC on top the whole way...
The impression I got is that ATC just love traffic like that. It really does work.
I am sure it helps in the UK too but it is less obvious because the Class D system is a lot more "stuck up", and ATC generally is much less joined-up.
Nowadays I fly mostly IFR when I go abroad, because it's so much easier to plan, but when I used to fly VFR I used to file e.g. UK to Croatia, one leg, FL075, and when I turned up at KONAN at FL075 (cough cough FL074 really, probably) and got handed to Brussels Radar (or whatever) and gave them the next few waypoints, they just let me fly straight through the whole country - just like IFR traffic. OK, transiting Belgium takes only about 3 minutes
but I got the same over Germany, etc.VMC on top the whole way...
The impression I got is that ATC just love traffic like that. It really does work.
I am sure it helps in the UK too but it is less obvious because the Class D system is a lot more "stuck up", and ATC generally is much less joined-up.
Joined: May 2003
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From: London
Hi - an update from Atlas Control re some improved capability around flight plan resource and also some general guidance Update from Atlas Control after first operational weekend
Joined: Jan 2003
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: Near the bottom
So, for the benefit of all those VFR pilots who may have been confused by your earlier comment:
You would, in fact, use EET to the FIR boundary when crossing an international boundary, except on the 0.01% of occasions when a recognised waypoint happens to be on your route AND on the FIR boundary. In which case, why not just use the FIR boundary like everyone else?!!
Peter337: I always used to file VFR FPs with an EET to a waypoint, never to the FIR boundary.
Joined: Feb 2009
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From: Do I come here often?
I used Rocket Route for two flightplans for today, I kept making the same mistake which i just couldn't see and the plans kept getting rejected, I got an unexpected call from Rocket Route and the problems were solved on the spot.
When I become Pope the two guys from Rocket Route will be my first saints
When I become Pope the two guys from Rocket Route will be my first saints
Joined: Dec 2011
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except on the 0.01% of occasions
FIR boundaries are peppered with airway intersections. One just uses one of those.
Maybe you are planning your routes completely differently, but I plan them using the charts, and using flight planning software.
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Near the bottom
Peterh337
I'm not attacking you; I'm trying to explain that VFR pilots don't have to use waypoints on a FIR boundary, of which there are surprisingly few. I'm a rotary pilot and frequently cross the channel from private sites all over the South East. My routes touch a waypoint that happens to be on the FIR boundary so rarely, I don't even bother looking - why should I? I cross the FIR boundary at any one of a thousand different points, as I'm sure fixed wing pilots will do from their private strips (and airfields for that matter).
My point is that the vast majority of VFR pilots crossing the channel will use the point they cross the FIR boundary as the reference point for the EET details. You indicated that you never use this, but always a waypoint instead. I still don't understand why, but wanted to clear up the confusion you may have caused.
Oh, and I use Sky Demon for flight planning. Mostly.
I'm not attacking you; I'm trying to explain that VFR pilots don't have to use waypoints on a FIR boundary, of which there are surprisingly few. I'm a rotary pilot and frequently cross the channel from private sites all over the South East. My routes touch a waypoint that happens to be on the FIR boundary so rarely, I don't even bother looking - why should I? I cross the FIR boundary at any one of a thousand different points, as I'm sure fixed wing pilots will do from their private strips (and airfields for that matter).
My point is that the vast majority of VFR pilots crossing the channel will use the point they cross the FIR boundary as the reference point for the EET details. You indicated that you never use this, but always a waypoint instead. I still don't understand why, but wanted to clear up the confusion you may have caused.
Oh, and I use Sky Demon for flight planning. Mostly.
pneumono
ultramicroscopic
silicovolcano
coniosis
ultramicroscopic
silicovolcano
coniosis
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: UK
Another vote for Rocketroute from me. Used them for the past year now for airways IFR routings in the line of my work. Always found them to be helpful and proactive. Filed with them into R112...........they straightened out my cack handedness with good humour and enabled my flight. All round good eggs.
Joined: Dec 2011
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I still don't understand why, but wanted to clear up the confusion you may have caused.
Shoreham to Le Touquet.
EGKA SFD ALESO LFAT
ALESO is your FIR boundary.
Shoreham to Caen
EGKA SITET LFRK
SITET is your FIR boundary.
I am not saying everybody has to do it that way, obviously, but these waypoints are in abundance. Just looking at the 1:500k southern chart, you have
BIGNO SKERRY ORTAC BORLO GARMI KOTEM NEVIL SITET XAMAB XIDIL KUNAV ALESO SOVAT DEVAL RINTI VABIK KONAN RAPIX GILTI SUMUM XAMAM
and that is just for the south coast! Fill your boots....
Not let's look at another reason for using these. Let's say you are doing Shoreham-Caen. You cannot go direct, due to D040. Here, SITET gives you a handy waypoint.
I guess helicopter pilots fly differently (they certainly seem to fly much lower down) but if you extend this to flying abroad generally, there are very good reasons for using IFR waypoints for the entire route - as I have explained elsewhere.
Last edited by peterh337; 17th July 2012 at 13:46.
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: London
Guys,
Think of a VFR flight plan as an e-mail sent to a lot of addresses via AFTN. You can put into the route and remaks fields whatever you want, as long as it does not invalidate the syntax (for example special characters with meaning) you can specify all your waypoints using the Welsh name of the Navaid.
Somebody (a human) figures out where to send it to; sometimes a system provides assistance such as AFPEX, but that is not mandatory.
Hence a lot of bad habits were quietly corrected by professional flight-plan-senders, and the ones that remained where never picked on later because nobody cared enough.
That includes inconsistencies in rules and guidance. For example, is it EET/LFFF.... or EET/SITET.... if you have SITET in the route? Can you have SITET in EET even if you do not have it in the route? You can find backup for any answer from an official source.
It would be great if someone published the rules ATLAS is working to, so we can stop speculating what they are and stop arguing what they should be.
Think of a VFR flight plan as an e-mail sent to a lot of addresses via AFTN. You can put into the route and remaks fields whatever you want, as long as it does not invalidate the syntax (for example special characters with meaning) you can specify all your waypoints using the Welsh name of the Navaid.
Somebody (a human) figures out where to send it to; sometimes a system provides assistance such as AFPEX, but that is not mandatory.
Hence a lot of bad habits were quietly corrected by professional flight-plan-senders, and the ones that remained where never picked on later because nobody cared enough.
That includes inconsistencies in rules and guidance. For example, is it EET/LFFF.... or EET/SITET.... if you have SITET in the route? Can you have SITET in EET even if you do not have it in the route? You can find backup for any answer from an official source.
It would be great if someone published the rules ATLAS is working to, so we can stop speculating what they are and stop arguing what they should be.
Last edited by Cobalt; 16th July 2012 at 20:29.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Amsterdam
FWIW I use IFR intersections as FIR boundary crossing points too, when flying VFR. It makes dealing with ATC a lot easier ("estimate REDFA at 02" vs. "estimate the FIR boundary at 52 degrees 07 minutes North at 02") and it rarely adds more than a mile to the overall route.
Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Berkshire, UK
no transponder so no R112. Luckily my aircraft lives just outside the sportsday play area so I can still come and go. It is going to be a bit of a pain when we want to go to France next month, can't just slip through between LHR and LGW to Headcorn as we usually do, got to go the scenic route, take in the south coast. Ho hum.
If my AFPEX login doesn't come soon I will be glad that Headcorn can file a flight plan for me.................
Rans6...
If my AFPEX login doesn't come soon I will be glad that Headcorn can file a flight plan for me.................
Rans6...
Joined: Dec 2011
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Hence a lot of bad habits were quietly corrected by professional flight-plan-senders
The staff there were handling ~3000 flight plans per month, nearly all VFR, and they either ignored obvious enroute specification c0ckups, or reinforced their workload by laboriously correcting them.
The funny side of all this is that all flight plans involving the UK get CCd into some secret database, for search/rescue and national security reasons. The latter purpose is done by a load of people sitting in some big room, collating radar returns crossing the national frontier with filed flight plans. They must have a lot of fun with it
It's obviously not a rigorous process because so many people have flown to/from say N French airports with a flight plan which was simply lost.Now, Afpex allows you to file absolute garbage which nobody will correct.
Cobalt's "email" analogy is an apt one. It also helps to explain why the DOF/ parameter tends to work poorly on VFR flight plans.
The whole flight plan system is a mess - a legacy of the past 50-60 years.
For IFR flight plans, Europe has implemented a proper database-based system, only to have Eurocontrol screw it up with an impenetrable route validation system
Last edited by peterh337; 16th July 2012 at 22:08.
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Near the bottom
...these waypoints are in abundance
You don't have to mention the Lat/Long of the point you cross to the controller, just your estimate for the boundary at whatever point that happens to be.What about Manston to Calais? Or Lydd - Calais? Or Lydd - Le Touquet? Or indeed, Wycombe, Redhill, White Waltham, Clacton, Lashendon, Stapleford, Elstree, Biggin Hill, Rochester, Southend, Blackbushe and almost any airfield or private strip (or HLS) in the South East to Le Touquet?!! There aren't any IFR waypoints convenient for your route.
With flight planning tools such as Sky Demon, there's no effort in plotting a course that takes you directly to your destination without worrying about hitting IFR waypoints on the boundary. So, if you're reading this as a VFR pilot, don't bother with IFR waypoints. Waste of time, particularly if you use a modern FP tool.
PS Peter - I don't think LFRK is on the FIR boundary
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Swindon, Wiltshire
Or Lydd - Calais?
Or Lydd - Le Touquet?
Or indeed, Wycombe, Redhill, White Waltham, Clacton, Lashendon, Stapleford, Elstree, Biggin Hill, Rochester, Southend, Blackbushe and almost any airfield or private strip (or HLS) in the South East to Le Touquet?!! There aren't any IFR waypoints convenient for your route.
Joined: Jul 2011
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From: London
Atlas were great
Flew out of Waltham this morning to Dunkeswell - was a dipstick and forgot Zulu/BST difference so took off an hour earlier than filed plan said.
They were friendly and helpful, made me circle for 5 minutes while they located my plan which hadn't come up on their list yet, then approved me and sent me on my way, handing me to Benson.
Nae drama.
Returning tomorrow -just filed plan, waiting for approval number.
I used rocketroute to file my plans and it was a doddle.
They were friendly and helpful, made me circle for 5 minutes while they located my plan which hadn't come up on their list yet, then approved me and sent me on my way, handing me to Benson.
Nae drama.
Returning tomorrow -just filed plan, waiting for approval number.
I used rocketroute to file my plans and it was a doddle.
Joined: Jan 2003
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: Near the bottom
Stevelup
I couldn't see those waypoints on the 1/2 mill CAA charts, although they appear in search results in Sky Demon. How would a VFR pilot normally find and use these waypoints and others that aren't shown?
I couldn't see those waypoints on the 1/2 mill CAA charts, although they appear in search results in Sky Demon. How would a VFR pilot normally find and use these waypoints and others that aren't shown?
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Swindon, Wiltshire
On SkyDemon, you can switch them on by setting 'IFR Reporting Points' to Yes.
They are also shown on the lower level airways chart which you can download freely from NATS AIS.
I think they are much easier to use than arbitrary waypoints.
1) They are almost all in logical places
2) It is easy to 'say' them on the radio if you are asked
3) They are unambiguous and will definitely be accepted in your flight plan
They are also shown on the lower level airways chart which you can download freely from NATS AIS.
I think they are much easier to use than arbitrary waypoints.
1) They are almost all in logical places
2) It is easy to 'say' them on the radio if you are asked
3) They are unambiguous and will definitely be accepted in your flight plan