Requesting the Status of a Danger Area
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Alot better than it should be.
Which is just as well because I am off to look round some cathedrals in 35 deg heat.
Then more than likely drink a load of wine again cause its cheaper than Diet coke. Might give the spicy tapas sausage a miss this time though, a meal which just carrys on giving you its full flavour.
Which is just as well because I am off to look round some cathedrals in 35 deg heat.
Then more than likely drink a load of wine again cause its cheaper than Diet coke. Might give the spicy tapas sausage a miss this time though, a meal which just carrys on giving you its full flavour.
Might give the spicy tapas sausage a miss this time though..
Last edited by BEagle; 10th Jul 2012 at 11:58.
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Whereupon some rancid crone told me "Not above FL60!" in a 'nanny knows best' voice. So I repeated my call and she snapped back with the same 'instruction'. "Well, I tried to be helpful. Anyway, I will be climbing FL100 and I will be remaining outside the CTR. Squawking 7000, changing to en-route, good-day....click!".
You may of course leave the frequency and go back to your own eyeball, but trust me, using that alone isn't perfect, let alone switching off your xpdr.
Always better to make use of any available radar services than not to!
soaringhigh650, you clearly do not understand the way ATSOCAS works in the UK.
The top of the Brize CTR is 3500 ft QNH, above that it is Class G airspace. My call was to provide the Brize Radar controller with my intentions, to assist them in whatever strategic planning they might consider for separation directions to any IFR inbound or outbound traffic operating under a 'deconflcition' service. The ATCO was emphatically not providing any 'vectors or altitude assignment' under the 'basic' service under which I was operating. Hence she had no right whatsoever to issue any orders or instructions under those circumstances.
Requests for co-ordination are one thing, inappropriate overcontrol of aircraft in Class G quite another.
The top of the Brize CTR is 3500 ft QNH, above that it is Class G airspace. My call was to provide the Brize Radar controller with my intentions, to assist them in whatever strategic planning they might consider for separation directions to any IFR inbound or outbound traffic operating under a 'deconflcition' service. The ATCO was emphatically not providing any 'vectors or altitude assignment' under the 'basic' service under which I was operating. Hence she had no right whatsoever to issue any orders or instructions under those circumstances.
Requests for co-ordination are one thing, inappropriate overcontrol of aircraft in Class G quite another.
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to assist them in whatever strategic planning .. she had no right whatsoever to issue any orders or instructions under those circumstances.
There is no such thing as "inappropriate over-control" unless maybe you've been sent flying on far too much extra track miles or maybe stuck in a hold for way too long without any updates.
How would you like it if you got involved in several close encounters with other planes in the sky because you decided to have enough? Your pilot frends could have been at FL65, another at FL70, and another at FL75...
Who knows the bigger picture than the controlling facility that you are already talking to?
And how do you think I like it if I've been recommended to fly extra miles to avoid you just because I hear you come on frequency, said "don't bother me no more", came off frequency and switched off your xpdr?
Last edited by soaringhigh650; 11th Jul 2012 at 12:59.
And their strategic planning was that they would ideally like you to remain below FL60.
There is no such thing as "inappropriate over-control" unless maybe you've been sent flying on far too much extra track miles or maybe stuck in a hold for way too long without any updates.
There is no such thing as "inappropriate over-control" unless maybe you've been sent flying on far too much extra track miles or maybe stuck in a hold for way too long without any updates.
However, my exercise had a mandatory spin entry height of FL100 and it took a long time to reach that level - an unnecessary level-off would have extended the sortie time considerably.
A simple request to amend heading for coordination would have been fine - this abrupt and terse attempt at overcontrol was indeed completely unacceptable.
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you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about... an unnecessary level-off would have extended the sortie time considerably... abrupt and terse attempt at overcontrol was indeed completely unacceptable.
You're not the only one in the sky!
You really have no idea what you're talking about.
In the UK, there is no requirement to speak to anyone in gin-clear VMC in Class G airspace under the conditions I described.
In the UK, there is no requirement to speak to anyone in gin-clear VMC in Class G airspace under the conditions I described.
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Airway L9 has a base of FL65 over northern side of the Brize overhead, FL105 in the southern half. That's not class G... that's class A 
I hope there were no CAS infringements
I hope there were no CAS infringements
The airways had different names back then - and anyway, I was well clear of all CAS throughout. We all new exactly where the airspace boundaries were by reference to prominent ground features and VOR/DME plot - it was our very well known local flying area, after all......
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BEagle,
Of course I know you don't have to talk to anyone in Class G. Or even Class E when VFR, or even in the TRSA.
That is not my point.
My point is that you decided to check into a facility, then didn't like what you were advised to do which was for everyone's benefit, then left claiming you were "over-controlled" and switched off your transponder.
That's bad airmanship in my book.
Of course I know you don't have to talk to anyone in Class G. Or even Class E when VFR, or even in the TRSA.
That is not my point.
My point is that you decided to check into a facility, then didn't like what you were advised to do which was for everyone's benefit, then left claiming you were "over-controlled" and switched off your transponder.
That's bad airmanship in my book.
Last edited by soaringhigh650; 11th Jul 2012 at 21:58.
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Geewhiz wind your neck in.
You are talking to civi equiv to a tre on tridents.
Brize are a bunch ATS of class G operating as if its class A.
Yes the are CAS issues but we know where the CAZ is. Due to the MIL AIP becoming a commercial money spinner civi's don't have access to the instrument procedures.
Fundementally if you are working class G you are on your tod. If you upgrade your service you have to accept you will be moved for traffic. If you decide to down grade you can do what you like. If you want protection you have to do what you are told and if some one says sod you on a lower service you have to either take it on the chin and take the track miles or down graded. Your choice as PIC.
In class G no ATC is going to tell me where to fly, they can request but they cannot tell me. If i decided i want more protection I just have to accept I will be moved to get the required seperation.
I will say though to ATS what my intentions are and that is what I will do. They can request but they cannot require me to fly in a certain manner.
The airmanship bollocks you have to do what a Service provider tells you to do in class G is utter bollocks. Class G is bandit country if you can't accept that, don't operate in that class of airspace.
Soaring you are talking ****e Class G you are on your tod you do what you like and if controller starts controlling in a manner which you don't like bin them. Any person who operates in that airspace who doesn't understand that they have zero prtection should NOT be operating in that class of airspace.
You are talking to civi equiv to a tre on tridents.
Brize are a bunch ATS of class G operating as if its class A.
Yes the are CAS issues but we know where the CAZ is. Due to the MIL AIP becoming a commercial money spinner civi's don't have access to the instrument procedures.
Fundementally if you are working class G you are on your tod. If you upgrade your service you have to accept you will be moved for traffic. If you decide to down grade you can do what you like. If you want protection you have to do what you are told and if some one says sod you on a lower service you have to either take it on the chin and take the track miles or down graded. Your choice as PIC.
In class G no ATC is going to tell me where to fly, they can request but they cannot tell me. If i decided i want more protection I just have to accept I will be moved to get the required seperation.
I will say though to ATS what my intentions are and that is what I will do. They can request but they cannot require me to fly in a certain manner.
The airmanship bollocks you have to do what a Service provider tells you to do in class G is utter bollocks. Class G is bandit country if you can't accept that, don't operate in that class of airspace.
Soaring you are talking ****e Class G you are on your tod you do what you like and if controller starts controlling in a manner which you don't like bin them. Any person who operates in that airspace who doesn't understand that they have zero prtection should NOT be operating in that class of airspace.
Last edited by mad_jock; 11th Jul 2012 at 21:10.
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mad_jock,
If you don't want traffic advisories, don't use the service and waste everyone's time. Listen in on frequency if you prefer.
If you want traffic advisories and you are given something you don't like, just ask to see when and how you can be accommodated. Most controllers are actually nice people.
Don't run off and switch off your xpdr the moment things ain't to your liking.
If you don't want traffic advisories, don't use the service and waste everyone's time. Listen in on frequency if you prefer.
If you want traffic advisories and you are given something you don't like, just ask to see when and how you can be accommodated. Most controllers are actually nice people.
Don't run off and switch off your xpdr the moment things ain't to your liking.
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I doud't very much if he was, he was more than likely on an information service because otherwise he would be on a sticky wicket when he told them to foxtrot oscar.
If a controller try to move you in class G for their benefit and it is not a request they get told to foxtrot oscar end of story.
If they then try to bully you into being controlled then sod them you are then unkown traffic. If other aircraft operating in class G get screwed they have a choice of dropping there service level or take track miles end of story.
If you don't like operating in bandit country or are talent limited that you can't, keep your arse in class A.
Personally I would never accepted an advisory servise off brize because it would be like taking you pants down in covent garden. It wouldn't be a question of if you were going to get shafted it would be when you were going to get shafted up the arse.
And I know controllers are nice people but if you think me a BEagle are nasty you should see a ATCO on the tit. Brutal is the understatment of the year when subjected to talent limited piss taking service which unfortunately can be expected by some units in the UK.
If a controller try to move you in class G for their benefit and it is not a request they get told to foxtrot oscar end of story.
If they then try to bully you into being controlled then sod them you are then unkown traffic. If other aircraft operating in class G get screwed they have a choice of dropping there service level or take track miles end of story.
If you don't like operating in bandit country or are talent limited that you can't, keep your arse in class A.
Personally I would never accepted an advisory servise off brize because it would be like taking you pants down in covent garden. It wouldn't be a question of if you were going to get shafted it would be when you were going to get shafted up the arse.
And I know controllers are nice people but if you think me a BEagle are nasty you should see a ATCO on the tit. Brutal is the understatment of the year when subjected to talent limited piss taking service which unfortunately can be expected by some units in the UK.
Last edited by mad_jock; 11th Jul 2012 at 23:10.
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Out of curiosity - what does a request (rather than an instruction) sound like from ATC?
I've been in the "Cumbernauld Gap" where Glasgow CTA starts at 3000 feet. On a basic service from Glasgow Radar they've mentioned (for want of a better word) staying below 2000'. I'd planned 2500 (which I told them). I know I could have done a MJ, stopped talking to them and followed my plan but presumably they were vectoring traffic overhead in the CTA into Glasgow so I obeyed. Didn't sound like a request though. Is it the magic word "cleared" that makes the difference?
I've been in the "Cumbernauld Gap" where Glasgow CTA starts at 3000 feet. On a basic service from Glasgow Radar they've mentioned (for want of a better word) staying below 2000'. I'd planned 2500 (which I told them). I know I could have done a MJ, stopped talking to them and followed my plan but presumably they were vectoring traffic overhead in the CTA into Glasgow so I obeyed. Didn't sound like a request though. Is it the magic word "cleared" that makes the difference?
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Well the usually start it with "request"
And then when they want something the good ones will tell you why.
To be honest as part of your planning its worth looking which way Glasgow is landing.
If they are on westerlys they will want you to stay low and easterlies they won't be bothered if your right on the edge of CAS.
And then when they want something the good ones will tell you why.
To be honest as part of your planning its worth looking which way Glasgow is landing.
If they are on westerlys they will want you to stay low and easterlies they won't be bothered if your right on the edge of CAS.
This is not a new issue (ATC trying to control aircraft outside controlled airspace) but I have to say it seems to be becoming more commonplace.
I have nothing but praise for 99% of controllers I speak to but there are just a few who insist on attempting to organise traffic in class G, even when on a basic service. There is no point trying to keep people away from somewhere like the Brize overhead because the ones who don't care (or don't even have a radio) will not be talking to them. Given the shortly-going-live Olympic airspace, expect even more traffic routing over there. VFR/IFR, you name it.
Recently, I asked for a clearance through XXX (shades of CHIRP here!) and it came back with conditions I would have had difficulty complying with, so I politely declined and stated I would remain clear of CAS and take a longer route round. Having a GPS moving map as well as a paper one, I was able to navigate accurately around the airspace boundary. The controller got more and more agitated, as I was "close" to his airspace - I reassured him that yes, I knew where I was and no, I wasn't going to bust his patch. It got to the point where I offered to turn off the transponder and say goodbye, if that would make his life easier! He declined.
What is frustrating about episodes like that is that I was trying to do the right thing - keep ATC and other traffic informed about my position and intentions - but it appeared that I would have caused less of a problem if I was just another "unknown primary return". The controller was more concerned about me *outside* of his airspace than he was about silent returns or mode-A only that could easily have been vertically infringing. A lot of traffic information given to IFR aircraft in his zone was of the "unknown contact" variety.
I'd have thought as a controller, you have to assume that if the airspace you're responsible for starts 15 miles away, at 15.01 miles there is a wall of aircraft filling the sky who are neither visible on radar nor willing/able to talk to you. That's how I'd view it, anyway. Same goes in the vertical.
I have nothing but praise for 99% of controllers I speak to but there are just a few who insist on attempting to organise traffic in class G, even when on a basic service. There is no point trying to keep people away from somewhere like the Brize overhead because the ones who don't care (or don't even have a radio) will not be talking to them. Given the shortly-going-live Olympic airspace
, expect even more traffic routing over there. VFR/IFR, you name it.Recently, I asked for a clearance through XXX (shades of CHIRP here!) and it came back with conditions I would have had difficulty complying with, so I politely declined and stated I would remain clear of CAS and take a longer route round. Having a GPS moving map as well as a paper one, I was able to navigate accurately around the airspace boundary. The controller got more and more agitated, as I was "close" to his airspace - I reassured him that yes, I knew where I was and no, I wasn't going to bust his patch. It got to the point where I offered to turn off the transponder and say goodbye, if that would make his life easier! He declined.
What is frustrating about episodes like that is that I was trying to do the right thing - keep ATC and other traffic informed about my position and intentions - but it appeared that I would have caused less of a problem if I was just another "unknown primary return". The controller was more concerned about me *outside* of his airspace than he was about silent returns or mode-A only that could easily have been vertically infringing. A lot of traffic information given to IFR aircraft in his zone was of the "unknown contact" variety.
I'd have thought as a controller, you have to assume that if the airspace you're responsible for starts 15 miles away, at 15.01 miles there is a wall of aircraft filling the sky who are neither visible on radar nor willing/able to talk to you. That's how I'd view it, anyway. Same goes in the vertical.
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Usual self appointed experts talking **** again.
DACS or Danger Area Crossing Service. This is provided on the South Coast by Plymouth Military Radar during its’ hours of operation (Mon-Thurs 0800-1700 Fri 0800-1400) on frequency 124.15 East of Berry Head and 121.25 to the west of Berry Head. This service can give you up to date information on the status of the areas and advise you on the best possible route, avoiding any hazardous activity along with providing an ATC service. Outside the above hours of operation, the DACS is handed to the military at the London ACC, Swanwick and can be accessed through London FIR on 124.75 or Swanwick Military on 135.15. Note. Even though Plymouth Military may be closed, the Danger Areas remain active in accordance with the times published in the UKAIP and any NOTAMs.
DAAIS or Danger Area Activity Information Service. Information on planned activity can be obtained 24 hours a day from FOST Operations on 01752 557550.
DACS or Danger Area Crossing Service. This is provided on the South Coast by Plymouth Military Radar during its’ hours of operation (Mon-Thurs 0800-1700 Fri 0800-1400) on frequency 124.15 East of Berry Head and 121.25 to the west of Berry Head. This service can give you up to date information on the status of the areas and advise you on the best possible route, avoiding any hazardous activity along with providing an ATC service. Outside the above hours of operation, the DACS is handed to the military at the London ACC, Swanwick and can be accessed through London FIR on 124.75 or Swanwick Military on 135.15. Note. Even though Plymouth Military may be closed, the Danger Areas remain active in accordance with the times published in the UKAIP and any NOTAMs.
DAAIS or Danger Area Activity Information Service. Information on planned activity can be obtained 24 hours a day from FOST Operations on 01752 557550.
