AAIB Comment in Clued Up
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There is a marked difference between a instrument trained pilot and waypoint usage and a VFR pilots use if they haven't been trained for it
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I wasn't aware that a GPS was manditory equipment in a FAA ppl training aircraft.
I am sure its the same in the UK that if its fitted the student is taught how to use it (never flown a school machine with it fitted to be honest). But in both cases I should imagine that the standard of training and best practises is in the hands of the instructor.
In both cases an old hand hairy arsed GA pilot will give quality instruction which will guard against fixation and duff in equals duff out. And a zero to hero cluless wonder will be the blind leading the blind.
I am sure its the same in the UK that if its fitted the student is taught how to use it (never flown a school machine with it fitted to be honest). But in both cases I should imagine that the standard of training and best practises is in the hands of the instructor.
In both cases an old hand hairy arsed GA pilot will give quality instruction which will guard against fixation and duff in equals duff out. And a zero to hero cluless wonder will be the blind leading the blind.
In FAAland a student on their PPL checkride is expected to be able to competently use everything in the aeroplane.
If it has a GPS, you're supposed to be able to use and integrate it into your flying.
If it hasn't, you don't.
G
If it has a GPS, you're supposed to be able to use and integrate it into your flying.
If it hasn't, you don't.
G
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MJ, I wasn't clear. GPS is not mandated in an FAA training a/c, although if it's there the examiner can (and will) check if you can operate it correctly. I also assume, given the evolution of US airspace and ATC structures, that GPS usage is an integral part of training today.
What I as referring to was radio navigation (VOR, NDB) which is part of the FAA PPL syllabus and you are most definitely tested on the use thereof. Guess I misread your 'waypoints', but in the US you do learn how to navigate to intersections (which are waypoints of a sort) using VORs during your PPL.
What I as referring to was radio navigation (VOR, NDB) which is part of the FAA PPL syllabus and you are most definitely tested on the use thereof. Guess I misread your 'waypoints', but in the US you do learn how to navigate to intersections (which are waypoints of a sort) using VORs during your PPL.
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Nav aids is also taught in the UK as well. Its part of the required ICAO syllabus.
And there are several ways you can use a gps which arn't just direct to a way point.
For example if you are operating close to a boundary and don't have an airspace warning capability you can make a waypoint up and run a track from it (persudo VORTAC) so that you can always keep to the one side of that track to remain clear of the airspace. Handy if you taking photo's near CAS.
And there are several ways you can use a gps which arn't just direct to a way point.
For example if you are operating close to a boundary and don't have an airspace warning capability you can make a waypoint up and run a track from it (persudo VORTAC) so that you can always keep to the one side of that track to remain clear of the airspace. Handy if you taking photo's near CAS.
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Quote: Don't banks make use of GPS to timestamp transactions?
(Jan Olieslagers)
I don't think so. Bank transactions are generally handled by (or through?) computers, computers generally get their date and time information through an internet protocol called NTP. True, some NTP servers use GPS receivers as their source of information, but some are far away and some do not use GPS at all, like caesium clocks. And yes, these protocols do know how to deal with propagation delays.
(Jan Olieslagers)
I don't think so. Bank transactions are generally handled by (or through?) computers, computers generally get their date and time information through an internet protocol called NTP. True, some NTP servers use GPS receivers as their source of information, but some are far away and some do not use GPS at all, like caesium clocks. And yes, these protocols do know how to deal with propagation delays.
From the Light squared debate (2012):
Coalition to Save Our GPS
From the New Scientist (2011):
GPS chaos: How a $30 box can jam your life - tech - 06 March 2011 - New Scientist
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Mad Jock
I ferried a beat up old Citation which was indian Registered and changed to N reg from New Delhi to the UK.
It was an awful aircraft! You didnt need sim training with that bird as you got it for real
Thing was it had an old Kingt 90B GPS. With a very late departure from New Delhi and a very green co pilot with me we departed at night and in a monsoon for Karatchi in Pakistan then routing to Dubai across Saudi to Alexandra,Malta Marseille UK.
Last minute I asked if the GPS had a worldwide database which I was assured it had but it had not.
Halfway up Saudi NOTHING. We had to load every single waypoint enroute by hand from lat Long all good for the soul as well as landing into a sandstorm in the middle of Saudi at a military base.
No moving maps flashing screens and pretty colours just hard work.
Pace
I ferried a beat up old Citation which was indian Registered and changed to N reg from New Delhi to the UK.
It was an awful aircraft! You didnt need sim training with that bird as you got it for real
Thing was it had an old Kingt 90B GPS. With a very late departure from New Delhi and a very green co pilot with me we departed at night and in a monsoon for Karatchi in Pakistan then routing to Dubai across Saudi to Alexandra,Malta Marseille UK.
Last minute I asked if the GPS had a worldwide database which I was assured it had but it had not.
Halfway up Saudi NOTHING. We had to load every single waypoint enroute by hand from lat Long all good for the soul as well as landing into a sandstorm in the middle of Saudi at a military base.
No moving maps flashing screens and pretty colours just hard work.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 1st Jul 2012 at 18:07.
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What I as referring to was radio navigation (VOR, NDB) which is part of the FAA PPL syllabus and you are most definitely tested on the use thereof.
Last edited by patowalker; 1st Jul 2012 at 21:43.
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That's true but it is getting very hard now to avoid modern avionics when doing the FAA PPL, because most schools have modernised, and the examiner will request a demonstration of competence on all installed equipment (to the extent compatible with the license privileges i.e. no need to demonstrate GPS approaches when doing the PPL ).
Whereas in the UK, any installed GPS is turned off during the skills test, and probably during all the training (at most schools, anyway, even though a GPS can be used in most of the PPL syllabus).
Anyway, the length of this thread shows how much negative impact a silly little one-liner in what purports to be an official organ of the CAA can have.
).Whereas in the UK, any installed GPS is turned off during the skills test, and probably during all the training (at most schools, anyway, even though a GPS can be used in most of the PPL syllabus).
Anyway, the length of this thread shows how much negative impact a silly little one-liner in what purports to be an official organ of the CAA can have.
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Frankly I'm baffled. A gadget which eliminates all uncertainty over where you are 'decreases your situational awareness'. And how does that work?
You know courtesy of the not invented here, work of the devil, GPS - and that knowledge decreases your situation awareness - because the others are stiull using ADFs? Or it is a Yankee conspiracy to reduce the skill set which real aviators need?
Even if someone is doing a classic 'Darwin Award' they are unlikely to turn right onto a railway line or turn left into a canal. Even the poorest GPS will likely have a line indicating controlled airspace.
Even if it doesn't they still do know where they are - which would not have been the situation previously (pre-GPS)..
A bit more thought would have been appropriate - particularly from a body like the AAIB. Or are they heading back into G-styx terriority?
You know courtesy of the not invented here, work of the devil, GPS - and that knowledge decreases your situation awareness - because the others are stiull using ADFs? Or it is a Yankee conspiracy to reduce the skill set which real aviators need?
Even if someone is doing a classic 'Darwin Award' they are unlikely to turn right onto a railway line or turn left into a canal. Even the poorest GPS will likely have a line indicating controlled airspace.
Even if it doesn't they still do know where they are - which would not have been the situation previously (pre-GPS)..
A bit more thought would have been appropriate - particularly from a body like the AAIB. Or are they heading back into G-styx terriority?
Last edited by gasax; 1st Jul 2012 at 20:16.
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Singing "this the road to ha'il" pace 
Long live the mighty trimble. And a slow painfull dose of D&V to those that jam GPS when there is sod all on the ground.
Long live the mighty trimble. And a slow painfull dose of D&V to those that jam GPS when there is sod all on the ground.
Last edited by mad_jock; 1st Jul 2012 at 20:58.
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There is actually another possibilty which your not going to like.
That is that they have statistical data to back up that cockups with GPS are a major factor in loosing SA and busting airspace.
It all comes down to what the pilot says after they get thier collar felt post event.
Do these box's with airspace warnings take into account altitude when they give a warning?
That is that they have statistical data to back up that cockups with GPS are a major factor in loosing SA and busting airspace.
It all comes down to what the pilot says after they get thier collar felt post event.
Do these box's with airspace warnings take into account altitude when they give a warning?
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If they jam GPS over a wide area, they will have a lot of fun with all the aircraft which
- are flying IFR
- are flying in CAS
- are required to be BRNAV compliant
- have an IFR GPS as the only possible/practical means of BRNAV compliance
- have been given a nice 200nm DCT by ATC
That includes everything meeting the above scenario, right up to big business jets. Very very few bizjets have INS or IRS; GPS-based RNAV FMS is the standard fit.
According to a Eurocontrol nav conference I went to a while ago, the planned fallback for loss of GPS is ATC (radar) vectoring, which is fair enough but the ATC workload will go way up if they jam GPS over a wide area and they do it from a reasonable altitude so that airborne aircraft (with proper roof-mounted GPS aerials) are affected too.
- are flying IFR
- are flying in CAS
- are required to be BRNAV compliant
- have an IFR GPS as the only possible/practical means of BRNAV compliance
- have been given a nice 200nm DCT by ATC
That includes everything meeting the above scenario, right up to big business jets. Very very few bizjets have INS or IRS; GPS-based RNAV FMS is the standard fit.
According to a Eurocontrol nav conference I went to a while ago, the planned fallback for loss of GPS is ATC (radar) vectoring, which is fair enough but the ATC workload will go way up if they jam GPS over a wide area and they do it from a reasonable altitude so that airborne aircraft (with proper roof-mounted GPS aerials) are affected too.
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I suggest you don't fly in Scotland then Peter. Last year it came up in parlament that the fishermen were knackard and could the mil please turn it off.
And most planes FMS has DME/DME as the primary and VOR/DME or VOR/VOR as the fall back for position fixing. So I doud't even 1% of the big stuff would even notice that the GPS was out. They would just press the msg button twice to stop it flashing.
And the area that I was commenting on you don't get 200nm directs you get 500Nm directs with no VHF coverage and just miles and miles of sand with the occasional rocky out crop and some polo shaped fields of green.
And most planes FMS has DME/DME as the primary and VOR/DME or VOR/VOR as the fall back for position fixing. So I doud't even 1% of the big stuff would even notice that the GPS was out. They would just press the msg button twice to stop it flashing.
And the area that I was commenting on you don't get 200nm directs you get 500Nm directs with no VHF coverage and just miles and miles of sand with the occasional rocky out crop and some polo shaped fields of green.
Last edited by mad_jock; 1st Jul 2012 at 21:41.
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Meldex they have a standing instruction that anywhere in the UK there maybe GPS jamming without warning.
I suspect that the first sign that something is kicking off will be the GPS going off line.
I doudt very much they will have time to put a NOTAM out. And it will have zero effect on commercial flights in the area. If they turned off all the DME and VOR's as well it would be chaos.
I suspect that the first sign that something is kicking off will be the GPS going off line.
I doudt very much they will have time to put a NOTAM out. And it will have zero effect on commercial flights in the area. If they turned off all the DME and VOR's as well it would be chaos.
Last edited by mad_jock; 1st Jul 2012 at 21:46.
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Meldex, I'm sorry but if you looked at the notam I posted it had a much more significant area than just Sailsbury. I was surprised for a pilot to ask the question you did, especially one who is used to reading a notam? It extended 65nm surface to FL400. Good fun for any airliner enroute to Birmingham from the south on the day, but no one complained, no airliners came crashing down.
As you will be aware notams can be issued on the day. Also in the event of an "incident" at the Olympics we may not get any notice...
As you will be aware notams can be issued on the day. Also in the event of an "incident" at the Olympics we may not get any notice...
Last edited by goldeneaglepilot; 1st Jul 2012 at 21:51.
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Do these box's with airspace warnings take into account altitude when they give a warning?
Maybe this "feature" is designed for the American mid west, not the south east of England.
Also unhelpful is when it says "within airspace" when you're not inside anything that matters, or that you're interested in, or that you can find on the map.
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Thanks Wombat.
The airspace warning is turned off on all the work machines for obvious reasons.
I did suspect down south it would be going off all the time. My thoughts were that alot of these busts were underneith steps in airspace and if the box of tricks took into account vertical as well as horizontal position. Sounds like it doesn't if its saying you are in it when you have an airway overhead below 10k
The airspace warning is turned off on all the work machines for obvious reasons.
I did suspect down south it would be going off all the time. My thoughts were that alot of these busts were underneith steps in airspace and if the box of tricks took into account vertical as well as horizontal position. Sounds like it doesn't if its saying you are in it when you have an airway overhead below 10k
Last edited by mad_jock; 1st Jul 2012 at 21:55.
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What annoyed me about the article that after having mentioned these causes of accidents/incidents it did not substantiate or even attempt to explain/give examples of this "over-use" of GPS...
If the guy who wrote it had actually given an explanation for the assertion we might actually have been able to comment on it. I appreciate the CAA sending out a magazine from time to time but many of the articles in it (including this one) had absolutely no substance to them or said anything of worth.
If the guy who wrote it had actually given an explanation for the assertion we might actually have been able to comment on it. I appreciate the CAA sending out a magazine from time to time but many of the articles in it (including this one) had absolutely no substance to them or said anything of worth.