G-reg cost sharing around Europe?

[peterh337]

It's obviously legal in UK airspace...

Any country could ban it within its own airspace, but EASA regs (are there any covering this?) might over-ride that.

N-reg is complicated. Illegal in UK airspace under ANO Art 225 and in any case complicated due to the FAA "common purpose test".

I have a letter from the head of French Customs which confirms they will not apply Cabotage to private flights, which is very kind of them but obviously if they want to go for you for cabotage then they have already decided it wasn't a private flight This was obtained by somebody, a few years ago, regarding cost shared flights within France.

[peterh337]

Interesting... no takers on this one

[englishal]

We don't cost share. I normally fly one leg and then he flies the other leg. I don't think I have ever cost shared in my life other than my dad insisting on giving me some fuel money. I didn't want it of course but it made him happy, so I charged him for the lift to the airport instead

[peterh337]

I don't cost share either (N-reg) but I wondered if anybody has ever done any digging on the legality of cost sharing outside the UK.

Presumably each country in Europe permits cost sharing, on its own aircraft. Cost sharing is absolutely essential to many people, who won't fly at all unless they can cost share.

However, a work-around is to fly with say 3 people and fly 3 legs and each person pays fully for his leg.

[AC-DC]

Don't know about legal points but like many did it in the past. As we are talking you might be able to help me with a bit of info.

We are looking to fly from Drezden to Karlovy Vary. We have filed DCT flight planes (VFR & IFR) but all were rejected due to border crossing points. We were told that we have to fly further south inside germany then cross and fly north to K.V.

Do you know if there is another way? I had a quick look in the AIP but could not spot anything about it.

Thanks

[peterh337]

We are looking to fly from Drezden to Karlovy Vary. We have filed DCT flight planes (VFR & IFR) but all were rejected due to border crossing points. We were told that we have to fly further south inside germany then cross and fly north to K.V.

Have you got an IR? If not you cannot file IFR outside the UK.

If you want to fly around Europe IFR you need to use proper tools e.g. FPP. See some of my IFR trip writeups (on my website) for the planning process.

There are no border crossings to be specified on IFR flight plans. Only on VFR ones do you put the ETA to the FIR boundary.

If anybody can find a reference to EASA rules or proposals on cost sharing, I would be very interested... I am doing a "VFR to Europe" presentation and there are a few bits I am having problems locating.

[chipmeisterc]

Air police correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that passengers can only contribute upto 49% of the cost. If you only paid 1/3rd then you might want to refund your pax the difference?

[peterh337]

3 passengers can pay 75% of the cost.

2 passengers can pay 66.6% of the cost.

1 passenger can pay 50% of the cost.

[chipmeisterc]

Considered corrected!
Maybe it's time to dust off airlaw again!!

[peterh337]

Trick question:

More than 3 passengers?

Only relating to direct cost for this flight, they can't pay my membership or monthly fees

.

Has the CAA finally come up with a clear definition on "direct costs"?

I see no offers yet on cost sharing outside UK airspace.

[airpolice]

I'm not allowed to carry more than three pax.

[peterh337]

I reckon you can carry more than three passengers but they are not allowed to contribute more than 75%.

Some people interpret the reg as saying that with >3 passengers no cost sharing at all is allowed. Maybe that is right?

[airpolice]

The definitive word on the subject.

This is an extract from the CAA document; SUMMARY OF THE MEANING OF COMMERCIAL AIR TRANSPORT, PUBLIC TRANSPORT & AERIAL WORK

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1428/Summa...009May2010.pdf

6.3 Exception No 3 - Cost sharing (Article 267)
6.3.1 A flight will be a private flight for all purposes if the only payment is a contribution to the direct costs of the flight (not annual costs) otherwise payable by the pilot in command.

This is provided –
(a) no more than four persons (including the pilot) are carried

(b) the pilot pays at least a proportionate share (e.g. if four persons are carried the pilot must pay at least 25% of the direct costs) and

(c) the flight has not been publicised in any way except within the premises of a flying club (in which case all the adult persons being carried in the aircraft must be members of that flying club).

So, I can do a 50/50 with a friend, and let his wife come along free, but they can't pay for the flight and let me go free.

I'm still searching for a definition of the "direct cost" of the flight. Can we include the travel to/from the airfield? Like the landing fee, this is money I would not have spent had I not been making the flight.

[peterh337]

Thanks for posting the info.

I do wonder if the 2010 PDF is valid post-EASA?

This is provided –
(a) no more than four persons (including the pilot) are carried

That does appear to ban any cost sharing if >4 people are in the cockpit.

the flight has not been publicised in any way except within the premises of a flying club (in which case all the adult persons being carried in the aircraft must be members of that flying club).

That clause is very old. For example nobody has defined whether a totally online "club" qualifies. If not, all those pilot forum "spare seat" adverts (which are obviously cost sharing adverts, given that many or most UK GA pilots won't fly at all unless they can cost share) would be illegal. I suspect the CAA does not want to test it in court...

I'm still searching for a definition of the "direct cost" of the flight. Can we include the travel to/from the airfield? Like the landing fee, this is money I would not have spent had I not been making the flight.

That one has been doing the rounds for ages, too

[AC-DC]

Peter

Thanks for the reply.
We are two pilots, the other guy is IR, I am not. We have tried to file IFR and VFR FF but in both cases we were refused and were told that we will have to fly towards VEMUT or LEKMI intersections.

I checked the AIP and looked into the lower airways etc. as well as reading the 'General' chapters but could not find anything that states that we can't fly direct.

[peterh337]

FPP will produce Eurocontrol-validated routes which cannot be refused, so I am a bit confused.

[AC-DC]

Peter
We are trying to file for VFR from Drezden to Karlovy Vary. We can't get a direct IFR route, fair enough, but we also can't get a direct VFR route. We tried it with Roketroute (even tlked with them) but no luck.
What route would you take?

Thanks

[peterh337]

Have you actually downloaded and tried FlightPlanPro?

EDDC-LKKV

FL100
ABKIS Z715 KULOK L984 OKG

The route has a large overhead (2.4x over GC) but you should be able to get a DCT to the airport from ABKIS.

This one is a bit shorter
FL100
ABKIS1W ABKIS Z715 ANELA L604 RUDNO L132 BEKTO DCT

Or you can be adventurous and file

FL100
ABKIS VFR



which has only a 3% overhead.

All above routes validate for tomorrow 1000.

I suspect you are drawing routes on an IFR chart and trying to file them. That is what is taught in the current JAA IR syllabus. It has not worked in Europe for at least 15 years.

[AC-DC]

Thanks.
My friend was using FPP. We will try your options and see what the gods say.

Thanks again