N Reg aircraft under official pressure in UK??
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It is an interesting point. Peter - why did you not call the number on the leaflet? I did and was shocked by what was said. Its not about N-Reg, its about ANY foreign reg aircraft.
Peter - you called elsewhere today for advice on this matter, do you go to your newsagent for advice on what to buy for your sunday joint of meat?
My feelings are that this has sneaked in and there are going to be a lot of very unhappy pilots.
Peter - you called elsewhere today for advice on this matter, do you go to your newsagent for advice on what to buy for your sunday joint of meat?
My feelings are that this has sneaked in and there are going to be a lot of very unhappy pilots.
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A takeoff is a movement be it IFR or VFR, and a landing is a movement again be it VFR or IFR. So if you wanted to go on a nav ex even if it was a round robin with no land away that would use two slots. Landaway it would be 4 slots two at each airport.
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I have heard of people operating N Reg to skirt around the law in the UK in terms of commercial work and training - is that what all this is about?
I'd refer you to your earlier posts but that thread seems to have vanished
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It is an interesting point. Peter - why did you not call the number on the leaflet? I did and was shocked by what was said. Its not about N-Reg, its about ANY foreign reg aircraft.
Peter - you called elsewhere today for advice on this matter, do you go to your newsagent for advice on what to buy for your sunday joint of meat?
My feelings are that this has sneaked in and there are going to be a lot of very unhappy pilots.
Peter - you called elsewhere today for advice on this matter, do you go to your newsagent for advice on what to buy for your sunday joint of meat?
My feelings are that this has sneaked in and there are going to be a lot of very unhappy pilots.
Can you just tell us what they said, rather than have DFT get a hundred half baked phone calls. We all know that IFR (into out of CAS) slots are going to be limited, we also know there is a whole production on VFR access into the restricted area - with a capacity that is uncertain at best. Your referenced document appears to indicate that all air taxi type operations into and out of the South East are subject to DfT prior approval (which is NA to me at least - but not relevant as all my flights are private).
What I have seen no evidence for is some further restriction which does not apply to G reg aircraft but does apply to all others. (May be this DfT requirement does not apply to G reg air taxis???)
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It seems to be customary on this forum if anyone makes a statement then it will be challenged and some will try to shoot it down - unless they have heard it with their own ears, hence the suggestion to make the call for themselves.
However, what I was told is that during the Olympic period ALL foreign registered aircraft movements (in an area starting across the country roughly north of Birmingham) would need DFT approval, I asked if that was just commercial operations and was told - "NO ALL OPERATIONS private or commercial". I asked if that was just IFR and again was told ALL OPERATIONS. I was also told that surprisingly few people had bothered to apply so far.
This seems to have had very little publicity, if I was sceptical I might wonder if this was intentional and in would effect leave some people grounded, and by the time pople realise it would be too late to make any plans
A number of gliding clubs in the restricted area have already discovered that for the Olympic period they will effectively be grounded.
However, what I was told is that during the Olympic period ALL foreign registered aircraft movements (in an area starting across the country roughly north of Birmingham) would need DFT approval, I asked if that was just commercial operations and was told - "NO ALL OPERATIONS private or commercial". I asked if that was just IFR and again was told ALL OPERATIONS. I was also told that surprisingly few people had bothered to apply so far.
This seems to have had very little publicity, if I was sceptical I might wonder if this was intentional and in would effect leave some people grounded, and by the time pople realise it would be too late to make any plans
A number of gliding clubs in the restricted area have already discovered that for the Olympic period they will effectively be grounded.
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Well, I also "heard" from the CAA website that "the holder of a FAA IR will have the same privileges as an IMCr holder"...This was printed in black and white on their website some time ago.
But what one "hears" and what is truth are two different things. Unless I see this in black and white and it is law, then as far as I am concerned, nothing has changes to the present. I have yet to find that information...
But what one "hears" and what is truth are two different things. Unless I see this in black and white and it is law, then as far as I am concerned, nothing has changes to the present. I have yet to find that information...
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Top tip!! Read the earlier posts Englishal and maybe phone the number for yourself.... The leaflet was published 14 months ago by the body that the CAA answer to.
Alternatively carry on with total disregard, to quote what the Sun said about the way that pilots would be treated if they failed to comply with Olympic restrictions:
Ultimately the pilot will be killed with a shot to the head over open country rather than risk an event being bombed
Last edited by goldeneaglepilot; 25th May 2012 at 10:26.
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I have been in email contact with Dft, where I have asked the specific question of what restrictions exist/what approvals are required and specifically to identify that I was 'told by someone that all non G-reg aircraft need Dft permission'.
I then stated this was inconsistent with my understanding and then set out to fully enumerate the special Olympic rules with a reiteration that none of these rules differentially affect G and foreign reg aircraft (save the specific requirement to have a slot before the currently required Article 223 approval would be given). I have received a confirmation my understanding is correct (with one key exception) and there were no differential rules applying to foreign reg aircraft.
The exception is that the slots apply to all IFR flights including those totally OCAS and the restricted area. This is inconsistent with the words on their website pamphlet, which I have pointed out, but is consistent with the AIC
sanitised email from here down Red is their addition Silver is their strikeout of original text
-------------
Dear name removed,
*
Please find below corrections to your summary.
*
Best regards
*
Name removed
*
.....
Subject: Olympic slots for Foreign Aircraft.
*
Sirs,
A fellow pilot has told me that he was informed in a telephone conversation with your organisation that ALL foreign (i.e. non G-reg aircraft) will require a DfT issued approval for any flight near any of the coordinated airports. *This is inconsistent with my understanding from published information.
The published information I have available tells me
1. * * * *For an IFR departure or arrival into a coordinated airport controlled airspace, a slot must be booked with ACL] NATs.
2. * * * *Additionally, for the operations above, a Dft approval will be required for non-scheduled public transport operations by non-UK registered aircraft (and this will only be approved subject to proof a slot has been booked). *This, is the normal application of Article 223 with the addition of the requirement to already hold a slot.
3. * * * *No specific slot is required for VFR or IFR operations not intending to enter Controlled Airspace for the coordinated airports. All IFR flights arriving or departing from a coordinated airport must have a slot from ACL.
4. * * * *Not withstanding 3 above, if any part of the operations (VFR or IFR) will enter R112, the flight will require an approved flight plan with an approval code issued by Atlas Control.
None, of these regulations indicate any differential treatment of G-Registered vs. other aircraft with regard to the Olympic restrictions. *Can you confirm my summary of the restrictions is complete and correct.
I am asking this as I operate a non-UK registered aircraft in the South of England and am aware of a number of other locally operated aircraft registered in various European countries, Crown Dependancies, and the USA and wish to ensure I am fully cognisant of the rules and regulations to be implemented during the Olympic period
Thank you in advance for your assistance.
I then stated this was inconsistent with my understanding and then set out to fully enumerate the special Olympic rules with a reiteration that none of these rules differentially affect G and foreign reg aircraft (save the specific requirement to have a slot before the currently required Article 223 approval would be given). I have received a confirmation my understanding is correct (with one key exception) and there were no differential rules applying to foreign reg aircraft.
The exception is that the slots apply to all IFR flights including those totally OCAS and the restricted area. This is inconsistent with the words on their website pamphlet, which I have pointed out, but is consistent with the AIC
sanitised email from here down Red is their addition Silver is their strikeout of original text
-------------
Dear name removed,
*
Please find below corrections to your summary.
*
Best regards
*
Name removed
*
.....
Subject: Olympic slots for Foreign Aircraft.
*
Sirs,
A fellow pilot has told me that he was informed in a telephone conversation with your organisation that ALL foreign (i.e. non G-reg aircraft) will require a DfT issued approval for any flight near any of the coordinated airports. *This is inconsistent with my understanding from published information.
The published information I have available tells me
1. * * * *For an IFR departure or arrival into a coordinated airport controlled airspace, a slot must be booked with ACL] NATs.
2. * * * *Additionally, for the operations above, a Dft approval will be required for non-scheduled public transport operations by non-UK registered aircraft (and this will only be approved subject to proof a slot has been booked). *This, is the normal application of Article 223 with the addition of the requirement to already hold a slot.
3. * * * *No specific slot is required for VFR or IFR operations not intending to enter Controlled Airspace for the coordinated airports. All IFR flights arriving or departing from a coordinated airport must have a slot from ACL.
4. * * * *Not withstanding 3 above, if any part of the operations (VFR or IFR) will enter R112, the flight will require an approved flight plan with an approval code issued by Atlas Control.
None, of these regulations indicate any differential treatment of G-Registered vs. other aircraft with regard to the Olympic restrictions. *Can you confirm my summary of the restrictions is complete and correct.
I am asking this as I operate a non-UK registered aircraft in the South of England and am aware of a number of other locally operated aircraft registered in various European countries, Crown Dependancies, and the USA and wish to ensure I am fully cognisant of the rules and regulations to be implemented during the Olympic period
Thank you in advance for your assistance.
Last edited by mm_flynn; 25th May 2012 at 11:05.
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Top tip!! Read the earlier posts Englishal and maybe phone
the number for yourself.... The leaflet was published 14 months ago by the body
that the CAA answer to.
Let me get this straight. You are a pilot. You are presumably familiar with the way aeronautical information is promulgated.
You are suggesting that a very major restrictrion exits which has been promulgated through ABSOLUTELY NONE of the many official publications on Olympic Airspace matters and totally conflicts with what a reasonable person may depend upon - ie. that by reading all the published material on how to comply with Olympic Airspace restrictions, the absence of a single mention of a requirement for all foreign-registered movements to obtain DfT permission should allow them to conclude that such permission is not required.
So, either
1. the above is true and this "double secret" restriction exists and, it appears, you alone amongst the GA community are aware of it
OR
2. the person who picked up the phone and took your call is a bit confused
It seems to be customary on this forum if anyone makes a statement then it will be challenged and some will try to shoot it down - unless they have heard it with their own ears, hence the suggestion to make the call for themselves.
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Good work from mm_flynn 
It would have been totally barmy if N-regs needed specific DfT permission to take to the air in any part of the UK because there would be no way for visiting foreigners (most of whom are ...... wait for it guys .... this is an amazing revelation which was top secret until now ..... foreign registered
) to obtain such a permission - at the short notice potentially involved in international aviation.
However, I am b*****d as to why slots are required for IFR even if OCAS and outside the olympic "shoot you down" area. It is idiotic because (as anybody who has the slightest clue about UK aviation knows) there is no practical difference between IFR OCAS and VFR OCAS. All this rule does is cripple flying school instrument training income, make IAPs useless for people who need them (because the based schools will just book every one of the 1hr-ly slots - just like e.g. FTOs in Bournemouth have their instructors get out of bed at 6:30am and make phone calls in their pyjamas to book procedure slots) and encourages DIY letdowns into airports with perfectly good instrument facilities which will now be mandatorily useless for 90%+ of the time at any airport which is not running Bournemouth-type or Cranfield-type training levels.
It would have been totally barmy if N-regs needed specific DfT permission to take to the air in any part of the UK because there would be no way for visiting foreigners (most of whom are ...... wait for it guys .... this is an amazing revelation which was top secret until now ..... foreign registered
) to obtain such a permission - at the short notice potentially involved in international aviation.However, I am b*****d as to why slots are required for IFR even if OCAS and outside the olympic "shoot you down" area. It is idiotic because (as anybody who has the slightest clue about UK aviation knows) there is no practical difference between IFR OCAS and VFR OCAS. All this rule does is cripple flying school instrument training income, make IAPs useless for people who need them (because the based schools will just book every one of the 1hr-ly slots - just like e.g. FTOs in Bournemouth have their instructors get out of bed at 6:30am and make phone calls in their pyjamas to book procedure slots) and encourages DIY letdowns into airports with perfectly good instrument facilities which will now be mandatorily useless for 90%+ of the time at any airport which is not running Bournemouth-type or Cranfield-type training levels.
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Bizarre.
However all this would mean is a vfr departure from say shoreham with an earlier declaration of ifr if required. Legalities taken into account i guess with a 500 foot cloudbase a vfr departure might raise an eyebrow but hey ho.
One can only assume the "rules" were made up by someone who has no understanding of ifr ocas - oh yes so thats most pilots as well.
However all this would mean is a vfr departure from say shoreham with an earlier declaration of ifr if required. Legalities taken into account i guess with a 500 foot cloudbase a vfr departure might raise an eyebrow but hey ho.
One can only assume the "rules" were made up by someone who has no understanding of ifr ocas - oh yes so thats most pilots as well.
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This is inconsistent with the words on their website pamphlet, which I have pointed out, but is consistent with the AIC
However all this would mean is a vfr departure from say shoreham with an earlier declaration of ifr if required. Legalities taken into account i guess with a 500 foot cloudbase a vfr departure might raise an eyebrow but hey ho.
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I have personally seen a case (locally) where an inbound pilot had not got the PPR (required for 8-9am ops) and was refused landing. He had to orbit for maybe 30 mins.
He was mostly at fault for
- not having got notams (like ~50% of pilots, evident from not knowing the new ATIS)
- thinking that his VFR flight plan was "accepted"
- thinking that a flight plan would be OK for PPR
with the last two being used on the radio to try to get in. A bit sad really (not the pilot; it's the crap PPL training yet again).
He was mostly at fault for
- not having got notams (like ~50% of pilots, evident from not knowing the new ATIS)
- thinking that his VFR flight plan was "accepted"
- thinking that a flight plan would be OK for PPR
with the last two being used on the radio to try to get in. A bit sad really (not the pilot; it's the crap PPL training yet again).
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As a note, it is worth remembering that IAPs in VFR do not have to be under IFR, so to that extent, training organisations should be able to shoot approaches in VMC at coordinated airports without any hindrance, other than that imposed by the extra demand.
I believe the CAA has also, in an effort to avoid a bunch of biz jets stooging around low level, dictated that Z/Y flight plans will not be allowed during this time frame. I believe they may have acquiesced to Z/Y flight plans where the changeover is outside EG airspace to allow for IFR plans to and from VFR German and Italian airports.
Last edited by mm_flynn; 26th May 2012 at 09:43.