Learning curve post PPL
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Lincs
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Adam - no disrespect intended and I would not presume to judge your wider abilities. However, I think that CDUK demonstrates a laudable desire to learn from his mistakes, not simply list them - although there is no doubt some solace is to be found in realising that he is not alone!
My comments are aimed at encouraging the broad cadre of inexperienced aviators to adopt the good habit of debriefing themselves - critically but constructively - and establishing the mindset of not accepting less than their best. I doubt you would disagree with that.
As to your own specific experiences - I just thought a few ideas to overcome what you describe as being a particulary insidious circumstance with your own ac type (cannot see flaps, performance masking configuration, poor ergonomics, etc) might be helpful. Ultimately, it will not matter how many perfect procedures you have behind you if you get caught out by having the flaps in the wrong position at a critical moment! I am sure that you are not complacent but your comment 'it's ok because my instructor does it too' appears complacent, which, you must surely agree, is not a message that should be promoted among less experienced aviators. Credit where it is due for sharing your experiences of course.
Just trying to help - and I am certainly not a perfect aviator!
My comments are aimed at encouraging the broad cadre of inexperienced aviators to adopt the good habit of debriefing themselves - critically but constructively - and establishing the mindset of not accepting less than their best. I doubt you would disagree with that.
As to your own specific experiences - I just thought a few ideas to overcome what you describe as being a particulary insidious circumstance with your own ac type (cannot see flaps, performance masking configuration, poor ergonomics, etc) might be helpful. Ultimately, it will not matter how many perfect procedures you have behind you if you get caught out by having the flaps in the wrong position at a critical moment! I am sure that you are not complacent but your comment 'it's ok because my instructor does it too' appears complacent, which, you must surely agree, is not a message that should be promoted among less experienced aviators. Credit where it is due for sharing your experiences of course.
Just trying to help - and I am certainly not a perfect aviator!
Last edited by Captain Kirk; 18th Apr 2012 at 10:52.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In 2004, I was flying from Wangen Lachen (LSPV, Switzerland) to Corfu (LGKR Greece), VFR.
I had to climb out OCAS to FL129, in a small triangle of airspace, in an orbit all the way up, to cross the Alps. (Zurich would not allow me into Class C, base FL130).
I got to about FL100 and the thing would not climb any more. No icing, flaps away... Had a look around... the gear was still down
It was the result of a stressful departure situation, where I could not find anybody to pay the fees to, could not find anybody to operate the avgas pump, had the wrong currency on me, could not get the laptop fax to work to send the PNR Customs notification (LSPV has "Exit Customs" only) so had to use some fallback method for that (early days of electronics comms back then).
Once or twice in 10 years I left the key in the mags, in the ON position, during refuelling, which is really stupid.
As Fuji says, not many things (in fixed wing ops) are actually critical. A high perf airplane also helps.
I had to climb out OCAS to FL129, in a small triangle of airspace, in an orbit all the way up, to cross the Alps. (Zurich would not allow me into Class C, base FL130).
I got to about FL100 and the thing would not climb any more. No icing, flaps away... Had a look around... the gear was still down
It was the result of a stressful departure situation, where I could not find anybody to pay the fees to, could not find anybody to operate the avgas pump, had the wrong currency on me, could not get the laptop fax to work to send the PNR Customs notification (LSPV has "Exit Customs" only) so had to use some fallback method for that (early days of electronics comms back then).
Once or twice in 10 years I left the key in the mags, in the ON position, during refuelling, which is really stupid.
As Fuji says, not many things (in fixed wing ops) are actually critical. A high perf airplane also helps.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Adam
Frankly that is not fair!
You said:
followed by:
I think you will find I have very little history of "admonishing" people's piloting skills. I contributed orginally to this thread by pointing out that most "errors" dont matter a great deal and to boot often there are few ways of traping some errors if they are "missed". I then went on to say that on the other hand there are some errors that are safety critical and however much we may all miss these as well, its dangerous and not something of which to be proud. You happened to give the example of flaps and I agreed it is something we have all done. In itself it is unlikely to be an issue.
However for the reasons I gave in most cases performance and handling issues should identify the "problem" unless these are also ignored. Clearly you did ignore the airspeed was low in the cruise but decided for whatever reason not to investigate further. Had you done so your investigations might have revealed a more serious problem that the flaps or the gear being down.
So the only reason I drew attention to your post was not to admonish you but to point out that there could be a worthwhile lesson to take if not helpful to you of benefit to others. In short if the aircraft is not performing as it should it is well worth your while investigating why. Something is wrong!
Mate, I have made more than my fair share of "errors" and happily nearly killed myself twice on the present count due to my own stupidity.
I recall some fun and games I had once with the governor. The performance in the cruise was less than sprightly and yet I ignored the signs - and they were there. I then chose to carry out a T and G and you have guessed it the prop. didnt go fully fine and I was lucky to make it off the runway. The engineers claimed they had fixed the problem and the chief engineer even agreed to accompany me on the "test" flight. The prop still didnt go fully fine and I had enough reasons to suspect it wouldnt. We staggered into the air, barely climed to half circuit height and recovered quickly and a little worse for wear to the engineers' hangars. I learnt some good lessons. I also learnt that ultimately it doesnt matter if the engineer says its good to go, or the instructor says "I do that all the time" which was another reason I commented on your post.
So please forgive me but my posts were well meant.
Frankly that is not fair!
You said:
and I've flown 50nm once without raising them and it was only when I was
going to lower first stage of flap in the circuit I realised they were already
down! I did remember thinking the airspeed in cruise was low
going to lower first stage of flap in the circuit I realised they were already
down! I did remember thinking the airspeed in cruise was low
Fuji - my 32.000hr instrument instructor also forgets the flaps all the time,
However for the reasons I gave in most cases performance and handling issues should identify the "problem" unless these are also ignored. Clearly you did ignore the airspeed was low in the cruise but decided for whatever reason not to investigate further. Had you done so your investigations might have revealed a more serious problem that the flaps or the gear being down.
So the only reason I drew attention to your post was not to admonish you but to point out that there could be a worthwhile lesson to take if not helpful to you of benefit to others. In short if the aircraft is not performing as it should it is well worth your while investigating why. Something is wrong!
Mate, I have made more than my fair share of "errors" and happily nearly killed myself twice on the present count due to my own stupidity.
I recall some fun and games I had once with the governor. The performance in the cruise was less than sprightly and yet I ignored the signs - and they were there. I then chose to carry out a T and G and you have guessed it the prop. didnt go fully fine and I was lucky to make it off the runway. The engineers claimed they had fixed the problem and the chief engineer even agreed to accompany me on the "test" flight. The prop still didnt go fully fine and I had enough reasons to suspect it wouldnt. We staggered into the air, barely climed to half circuit height and recovered quickly and a little worse for wear to the engineers' hangars. I learnt some good lessons. I also learnt that ultimately it doesnt matter if the engineer says its good to go, or the instructor says "I do that all the time" which was another reason I commented on your post.
So please forgive me but my posts were well meant.
