Mode 'S' & 8.33kHz

[SMAZ]

Evening fellow aviators.

I am trying to find out if it is worth upgrading to a 8.33kHz comm. When is it going to become mandatory for GA? Same question for the Mode 'S'.

any advice greatly appreciated.

[bookworm]

The EU states have an obligation to change all frequencies to 8.33kHz spacing by 2018. If you can manage using 25 kHz frequencies before then (so far, nothing below FL195 is 8.33), there's no urgency to upgrade.

[peterh337]

The EU states have an obligation to change all frequencies to 8.33kHz spacing by 2018

An obligation to who? Is it an EASA/Eurocontrol reg passed into EU law?

I thought it had been comprehensively proven that the 8.33 requirement is based wholly on the Euro job creation scheme whereby each country wants to retain its frequency allocation rights. The USA which is much bigger doesn't need 8.33.

[bookworm]

Is it an EASA/Eurocontrol reg passed into EU law?

It's a Eurocontrol draft regulation that will become law soon. As far as I can tell, it has gone to written procedure in SES Committee.

[peterh337]

That's going to cost GA a lot of money. More than Mode S in most cases.

A basic but good quality 8.33 radio with NAV like the KX165A is $4000 or so (I put one in fairly recently).

There are some cheaper options but they will require significant rewiring - as will fitting a 165A in place of a 155 (non A) for example.

I guess most people will throw in a GNS430 or 430W, bought off Ebay - if they haven't got one already. But that's more rewiring.

For the lower airways, this is a crazy proposal.

Won't one need two 8.33 radios for IFR?

[gasax]

Filser ATR833 is £1280, so reasonably cheap - so long as you need a new radio. If you don't then it is a lot of money that could/should be spent flying.

But maybe, just maybe commonsense will set it before 2018...................

[robin]

Yeh right....

[Rod1]

“Same question for the Mode 'S'.”

In the UK there are no planes to make Mode S compulsory for VFR flight, but it is likely to get harder over time to fly in controlled airspace. Most TMZ’s will require Mode S or radio coms.
As to 8.33 – experience says things will get cheaper the later you leave it.

Rod1

[robin]

Have Mode S txs got cheaper? they seem to have plateaued at a consistent level but have not come down appreciably

[rapidshot]

May be this helps

EUROCONTROL - Requirements for civil aircraft

National AIP s ( sign up for free access)
EUROCONTROL - EAD Basic

[Rod1]

The first quote I got from BK around 10 years ago – before the 330 launch - was £4000. You can now get one for around £1500. Several co’s are looking at low cost 8.33.

Rod1

[peterh337]

That's an interesting site, Rapidshot

Interesting for 8.33 it says

2 Sets of VHF Transceivers with 8,33 KHZ channel spacing

but those people who put in a GNS430 hoping that will do it will have to put in yet another 8.33 radio of some sort.

For me the solution would be to replace the 2nd KX155A radio with another KX165A... not cheap.

Also interesting what it says about PRNAV, which is a much more expensive dark cloud for IFR GA:

OPS approval required to fly P-RNAV

What OPS approval? GA is mostly non-AOC.

This bit

Currently being introduced (whilst no ECAC-wide mandate for the carriage of P-RNAV is foreseen, some States may require P-RNAV certification for IFR operations in notified terminal airspace).
For certain TMAs for aircraft that are not approved for P-RNAV operations conventional procedures may continue to be available as stated in national AIPs

is somewhat more encouraging because while it suggests that PRNAV will be limited to terminal airspace (TMAs?) which Europe is full of, it suggests that non-PRNAV traffic will be provided for. It has to be anyway because "State" aircraft will be exempted.

[Peter Gristwood]

Rod1

A lot of electronic gadgetry 10 years ago was very pricey, but you should look at more recent comparisons

4 years ago in 2008 when the proposal was to mandate Mode S the cost was £1500 or so. The CAA were looking at the low-cost option at 700 euros - remember?

The cost is still £1500 (+ fitting + fees) so it hasn't really come down at all in over 4 years. And the lo-cost tx was a non-starter.

[chevvron]

8.33khz: this was discussed at the UK Phraeology Working Group some time ago. The CAA stated they had no plans to issue 8.33khz frequencies for use below FL195 for at least 10 years and probably longer, all allocations being for use by Area Control Centres for en-route traffic.
There are about 5 allocations in UK Airspace so far.

Having 8.33 frequencies in use means that we have to uses 6 digits when referring to any frequency with more than 4 digits ie '122.3' can be stated as such but '125.25' has to be referred to as '125.250' and '123.225' as wrtten rather than be abreviated to '123.22' as previously; 25khz and 8.33khz* frequencies (*why? My old ICOM was set up for 12.5khz spacing which would have been adequate) have to be stated in full. I argued that as 8.33 spacing was unlikely to be used in class G airspace for many years, we could file a 'difference' with ICAO stating this rule would not apply to traffic in class G airspace below FL95, expecting the MOD rep to support this. Unfortunately he didn't, and as no-one else on the PWG represented GA/class G interests at the time (there was no FISO rep established then) pilots and ATSU's are lumbered with it.

[peterh337]

I don't think the UK can just file a difference to ICAO anymore because it signed up to the EU, and if Eurocontrol present a reg to the EU for lawmaking and it becomes EU law, then the UK has to obey it.

In the same way, EASA+EU can force the UK to file a difference to ICAO on something else.

Personally I would be a bit more concerned about needing 8.33 for IFR in CAS in Europe generally. The IFR community is getting lumbered with more and more equipment/approval costs and most of them are 4 or 5 digits, just for fun. None of them give you any flying functionality as such.

[bookworm]

Personally I would be a bit more concerned about needing 8.33 for IFR in CAS in Europe generally. The IFR community is getting lumbered with more and more equipment/approval costs and most of them are 4 or 5 digits, just for fun. None of them give you any flying functionality as such.

If you're talking about IFR then it's much easier. IFR in class A/B/C will require 8.33 radios from 1 Jan 2014.

[achimha]

Try switching your GNS430 to 8.33kHz... mine was accidentally setup like this and it drove me crazy. You have to turn the knob eternally to get to the desired frequency. If this ever comes, it will be a nightmare.

[peterh337]

If you're talking about IFR then it's much easier. IFR in class A/B/C will require 8.33 radios from 1 Jan 2014.

I am in the wrong business, clearly.

The interesting Q is how many 8.33 frequencies will actually be used below FL200 i.e. whether one 8.33 radio will do.

[Rod1]

“You have to turn the knob eternally to get to the desired frequency. If this ever comes, it will be a nightmare.”

If you have an integrated EFIS controlling your radio you can drop the frequency you want straight out of the GPS database into the radio, and even set up lists in advance. This tec works with several of the uncertified EFIS systems into several of the existing 8.33 radios. There are also black box radios in the pipeline which do not have any direct user interface and do not have to be panel mounted. The units are totally controlled by the EFIS and are likely to be a cheap solution if you have a compatible EFIS – Dynon and MGL both do this for example.

Rod1

[achimha]

Yes, I actually do have that capability but I think it is of very limited use. Normally ATC tells you "contact RADAR on 123.45" and you dial that frequency directly instead of first checking whether it's in the list of upcoming sectors and choose it. Some people even write it down before they start dialing it.