Mode 'S' & 8.33kHz
When it comes to 8.33kHz, the other regulator you need to throw into the melting pot, in addition to EASA, Eurocontrol and the CAA, is Ofcom.
Their risible 'Administered Incentive Pricing' proposal aims to force the aeronautical sector to switch to 8.33 by making 25-spaced frequencies prohibitively expensive for ground stations.
See here
The squeeze is inexorable, in my opinion. 8.33 is on its way and unless you are planning on hanging-up your flying boots in the next five years I think it could be a false economy opting for a cheaper 25kHz radio.
Regards, jez
Their risible 'Administered Incentive Pricing' proposal aims to force the aeronautical sector to switch to 8.33 by making 25-spaced frequencies prohibitively expensive for ground stations.
See here
The squeeze is inexorable, in my opinion. 8.33 is on its way and unless you are planning on hanging-up your flying boots in the next five years I think it could be a false economy opting for a cheaper 25kHz radio.
Regards, jez
More expensive radios required......
According to the LAA the current situation is:
From 17 Nov 2013
• Manufacturers may not market radios
unless they are 8.33 capable.
• No aircraft may receive an initial CofA
or Permit unless any radios fitted are
8.33 capable.
• Any upgrade to aircraft radios must
include an 8.33 capability.
From 1 Jan 2014
• No aircraft may fly IFR in class A, B or C
airspace unless it is 8.33 capable.
• No aircraft may fly VFR in class A, B or C
airspace that is operating 8.33 channel
spacing unless it is 8.33 capable.
From 31 Dec 2017
• All aircraft radios operated in the EU must
be 8.33 capable.
I'm about to change aeroplanes so, as I am based within the Luton Zone I have to change out the Narco 810 that works perfectly well..... Thanks for nothing EASA
A bit of research has turned up the following:
Dittel Avionik KRT2 - £999
Funkwerk ATR 833 - £1,194
Becker AR6201 - £1,434
All fit a 2 1/4" instrument hole which is handy but will leave a Narco 810 sized hole in the panel.....
From 17 Nov 2013
• Manufacturers may not market radios
unless they are 8.33 capable.
• No aircraft may receive an initial CofA
or Permit unless any radios fitted are
8.33 capable.
• Any upgrade to aircraft radios must
include an 8.33 capability.
From 1 Jan 2014
• No aircraft may fly IFR in class A, B or C
airspace unless it is 8.33 capable.
• No aircraft may fly VFR in class A, B or C
airspace that is operating 8.33 channel
spacing unless it is 8.33 capable.
From 31 Dec 2017
• All aircraft radios operated in the EU must
be 8.33 capable.
I'm about to change aeroplanes so, as I am based within the Luton Zone I have to change out the Narco 810 that works perfectly well..... Thanks for nothing EASA
A bit of research has turned up the following:
Dittel Avionik KRT2 - £999
Funkwerk ATR 833 - £1,194
Becker AR6201 - £1,434
All fit a 2 1/4" instrument hole which is handy but will leave a Narco 810 sized hole in the panel.....
Last edited by LowNSlow; 29th May 2013 at 12:10.
Bob Upanddown, I only need a COM not a NAV / COM, but I would prefer to replace the Narco rather than move the radio location.
OC619, the wording was copied directly from the LAA article.
OC619, the wording was copied directly from the LAA article.
Last edited by LowNSlow; 29th May 2013 at 14:45.
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Garmin Nav Com £3114 or £3834 inc VAT.
So, for someone with an IMC (or IR(R)), the potential cost of going 8.33 compliant might bebetween £6k and £9K?? plus installation. Total spend might be 50% of the value of the aircraft. Will the aircraft be worth any more?? No but the ones not 8.33 capable in 3 years time will be worthless.
I'm about to change aeroplanes so, as I am based within the Luton Zone I have to change out the Narco 810 that works perfectly well.....
Thanks for nothing EASA
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And although you can say a lot of things about SESAR and wasting an atrocious amount of money, it's even difficult to blame the 8.33kHz debâcle on entirely on them.
A good short explanation is given here
The main reason is a lack of willingness to cooperate at European Level and to keep each of the dust gathering telecom frequency managing departments, well shielded from their political masters by a smokescreen of radio-physics and geography.
My country is not without blame either : Our DefMin is even better than its French counterpart when it comes to frequency hoarding and bull****ting at technical meetings.
Clearly small GA-interests were largely ignored. It would actually make sense and be possible to keep the lower flight levels and departure / approach frequencies on 25 kHz spacing. But hey, you don't expect them to do an effort for "those stinkin' rich people and their aeroplanes".
A good short explanation is given here
The main reason is a lack of willingness to cooperate at European Level and to keep each of the dust gathering telecom frequency managing departments, well shielded from their political masters by a smokescreen of radio-physics and geography.
My country is not without blame either : Our DefMin is even better than its French counterpart when it comes to frequency hoarding and bull****ting at technical meetings.
Clearly small GA-interests were largely ignored. It would actually make sense and be possible to keep the lower flight levels and departure / approach frequencies on 25 kHz spacing. But hey, you don't expect them to do an effort for "those stinkin' rich people and their aeroplanes".
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Trig to the rescue
I am told that Trig are soon to release an 8.33 NAV/COM that will fit into a KX155 rack without and wiring changes.
........... I will have four please !
........... I will have four please !
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I've got a Narco Com 120 in my Terrier, despite certain folk slating them mine has a good range and the audio clarity is absolutely fine, I would argue it's as good if not better than my mates Becker.
So should the time come when I have to replace it, does anyone know of a budget make that will fit that size tray and avoid wiring alterations. I'm not to keen on the round type such as the Becker, they're a bit fiddly.
So should the time come when I have to replace it, does anyone know of a budget make that will fit that size tray and avoid wiring alterations. I'm not to keen on the round type such as the Becker, they're a bit fiddly.
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Echo Romeo
You must have the only satisfactory Narco 120 in captivity !
Unforunatly there is nothing on the market at the moment that is a direct replacment and as the Narco is not very common it is unlikely that anyone will make one.
i have seen a Trig 8.33 radio retrofitted to a Piper cub, the fact that the control head and radio are seperate units made the instalation very easy and the owners are very pleased with the performance of the unit.
A Becker was considered for this job but the Trig won due to instalation issues.
Becker have a very good reputation and i think that any sound quality issues your mate has are likely to be due to issues outside the Becker radio.
Unforunatly there is nothing on the market at the moment that is a direct replacment and as the Narco is not very common it is unlikely that anyone will make one.
i have seen a Trig 8.33 radio retrofitted to a Piper cub, the fact that the control head and radio are seperate units made the instalation very easy and the owners are very pleased with the performance of the unit.
A Becker was considered for this job but the Trig won due to instalation issues.
Becker have a very good reputation and i think that any sound quality issues your mate has are likely to be due to issues outside the Becker radio.
Last edited by A and C; 31st May 2013 at 07:59.
Certainly the Trig transponder is good quality, if rhe radio is as good that will be the way to go. We have limited panel space (cub) but also limited cash.....
So I intend to wait and see what changes, as my current radio works fine.
So I intend to wait and see what changes, as my current radio works fine.
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You must have the only satisfactory Narco 120 in captivity !
Re my mates Becker, it was professionally installed so I'd be surprised if there are any other issues, 'could be the intercom! I don't know, but all I can say is that I wouldn't swap.
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Note that a KX155 has a different connector to a KX155A. Nobody IMHO should make a transponder compatible with a KX155 because that is a very old radio; about 17 years since discontinuation AFAIK.
If you have a KX155A then a KX165A/8.33 is a direct swap. 5 minutes.
If you have a KX155A then a KX165A/8.33 is a direct swap. 5 minutes.
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Not quite that simple Peter
A KX155A will slide into a 28V KX155 instalation ( but the backlighting won't work)
The KX155/165 swap will work if you have an audio panel but not in single radio instalations that use the KX155 audio amp.
The KX155/165 swap will work if you have an audio panel but not in single radio instalations that use the KX155 audio amp.
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I would have thought that a direct slot-in for the Garmin SL30/SL40 range was the obvious target for TRIG to aim for with an 8.33 Com. Or at least if not slot-in, to go for the same tray dimensions.
As others have said the KX155 is a very old piece of kit.
As others have said the KX155 is a very old piece of kit.
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KX155
The KX155 may be an old bit of kit but it is robust and reliable, that is why it is still the standard radio in most UK training aircraft and therefore a slot in replacement that requires no changes in the rack will make a slide in replacement an instant sucsess.
Just remember the Garmin 430 only fitted into the same space in the rack that a KX170 occupied and that I'd now the fleet standard for touring aircraft.
Slide in replacements are all about the size of the market, across my fleet of three aircraft for rental I will need four radios, the question is are Bendix King interested enough to ramp up KX165 production and drop the price to make worthwhile to replace all the KX155's with KX165A's or is Trig going to steal the market from under them ? Looking at the way Bendix/King have lost the GA plot over the past fifteen years or so my money is likely to be going to Trig despite me being more that happy with the service I have had from my Bendix / King equipment over the years.
The other problem is that most single KX155 insatations require an audio amp in the radio, that the KX165A has not got so perhaps Bendix king need to look at producing a KX155B with 8.33 & audio amp and getting one of there European dealers to write an EASA approves Mod for the instalation changes on any aircraft............ It is only if they do this that they will retain any foothold in the GA avionincs market.
Just remember the Garmin 430 only fitted into the same space in the rack that a KX170 occupied and that I'd now the fleet standard for touring aircraft.
Slide in replacements are all about the size of the market, across my fleet of three aircraft for rental I will need four radios, the question is are Bendix King interested enough to ramp up KX165 production and drop the price to make worthwhile to replace all the KX155's with KX165A's or is Trig going to steal the market from under them ? Looking at the way Bendix/King have lost the GA plot over the past fifteen years or so my money is likely to be going to Trig despite me being more that happy with the service I have had from my Bendix / King equipment over the years.
The other problem is that most single KX155 insatations require an audio amp in the radio, that the KX165A has not got so perhaps Bendix king need to look at producing a KX155B with 8.33 & audio amp and getting one of there European dealers to write an EASA approves Mod for the instalation changes on any aircraft............ It is only if they do this that they will retain any foothold in the GA avionincs market.
Last edited by A and C; 2nd Jun 2013 at 08:01.
bookworm, thanks for pointing that out!!
Basically, if you are not going to fly IFR and stay below 4,500' over a large swath of the UK then it is very likely that you will not need 8.33 until the blanket installation required Europe wide by the end of 2017.
I had a chat with some of the purveyors of avionics at Sywell on Friday and one chap reckoned that a good Narco 810 should fetch around £500 on the second hand market which will be a useful offset to the £1,000 - £1,500 + fitting for a new radio. I suppose as the final countdown ticks away the non 8.33 units will be worth less.
Basically, if you are not going to fly IFR and stay below 4,500' over a large swath of the UK then it is very likely that you will not need 8.33 until the blanket installation required Europe wide by the end of 2017.
I had a chat with some of the purveyors of avionics at Sywell on Friday and one chap reckoned that a good Narco 810 should fetch around £500 on the second hand market which will be a useful offset to the £1,000 - £1,500 + fitting for a new radio. I suppose as the final countdown ticks away the non 8.33 units will be worth less.
