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Hi Peter, A reminder this thread is about the forum not LAA as an organisation. A massive amount of work has already and continues to be done by volunteers to professional standards inside LAA.
I think "gentlemen amateurs" may have applied to the PFA but is an out of date description for the current LAA board of directors. There are some very talented individuals working for us who I doubt members could afford were they to charge the market rate for their time.
Anyone that thinks PFA --> LAA has just been a name change has not been paying attention. LAA has been able to expand both it's fleet and remit because CAA see a safe (and businesslike) pair of hands at both engineering level (paid professionals) and board level (volunteer professionals).
I think "gentlemen amateurs" may have applied to the PFA but is an out of date description for the current LAA board of directors. There are some very talented individuals working for us who I doubt members could afford were they to charge the market rate for their time.
Anyone that thinks PFA --> LAA has just been a name change has not been paying attention. LAA has been able to expand both it's fleet and remit because CAA see a safe (and businesslike) pair of hands at both engineering level (paid professionals) and board level (volunteer professionals).
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I think "gentlemen amateurs" may have applied to the PFA but is an out of date description for the current LAA board of directors. There are some very talented individuals working for us who I doubt members could afford were they to charge the market rate for their time.
That was my very point. A professional organisation wouldn't rely on that much goodwill. My use of the term 'amateur' means exactly that and is not meant to downplay their contribution
You and I have both sat in on NC meetings so we know very well how that works as well........
I take your point about the thread being about the forum, but you can't look at the way the communications, including the LAA forum, operate without looking how the LAA operates itself
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As the starter of this thread I want to re-iterate that I AM NOT unhappy with the LAA, on the contrary I think they, on the whole, do an excellent job.
The FORUM, which is populated mostly by members and not those that work for the LAA, is a wasteland. Go take a look and see if you can find any posts from younger members asking questions like, "can I build an aeroplane and fly it across the channel" or "can I learn to fly in an LAA aeroplane?" or "Can I fly in class D airspace in a permit aeroplane?"
All questions likely to be posed by someone new to light aviation and all questions the like of which we regularly see on here but never see on the LAA forum.
It's indicative of a forum that does not encourage new and ignorant posters, and I use the word "ignorant" in its purest sense, not in a derogatory sense.
Many people, myself included, have benefited enormously from the shared knowledge exhibited here on pprune and on the flyer forum but I doubt the same can be said of the LAA forum.
I am genuinely concerned that the net result will be a missed opportunity to cultivate the next generation of GA pilots.
We all know that GA is taking a legislative and beaurocratic battering at the moment and we need a collective to profer our views. That collective is a diminishing resource and the LAA should be more pro-active in addressing this.
I am sorry that Rod1 has felt the need to withdraw his future co-operation on the LAA forum but only those that make the rules can be blamed for that.
The FORUM, which is populated mostly by members and not those that work for the LAA, is a wasteland. Go take a look and see if you can find any posts from younger members asking questions like, "can I build an aeroplane and fly it across the channel" or "can I learn to fly in an LAA aeroplane?" or "Can I fly in class D airspace in a permit aeroplane?"
All questions likely to be posed by someone new to light aviation and all questions the like of which we regularly see on here but never see on the LAA forum.
It's indicative of a forum that does not encourage new and ignorant posters, and I use the word "ignorant" in its purest sense, not in a derogatory sense.
Many people, myself included, have benefited enormously from the shared knowledge exhibited here on pprune and on the flyer forum but I doubt the same can be said of the LAA forum.
I am genuinely concerned that the net result will be a missed opportunity to cultivate the next generation of GA pilots.
We all know that GA is taking a legislative and beaurocratic battering at the moment and we need a collective to profer our views. That collective is a diminishing resource and the LAA should be more pro-active in addressing this.
I am sorry that Rod1 has felt the need to withdraw his future co-operation on the LAA forum but only those that make the rules can be blamed for that.
I am a bit surprised that Rod1 thought the permission to use a nom de plume would keep his real identity a secret. I spent just a few minutes with the usual "aircraft" search tool and a quick Google search and figured out who he was almost the first time I saw his "handle" on a forum.
I didn't feel the need to spill the beans, not my style, but I was interested in finding out enough to be sure that there was some merit in the advice he was giving. There are too many "experts" falling over themselves to help when they know less than nothing about the subject in hand. If you don't even know who they are or what experience they have, how can you decide whether to trust the info they spout?
Rans6....
I'm sure you can all figure out who I am and what I fly in the real world,....
I didn't feel the need to spill the beans, not my style, but I was interested in finding out enough to be sure that there was some merit in the advice he was giving. There are too many "experts" falling over themselves to help when they know less than nothing about the subject in hand. If you don't even know who they are or what experience they have, how can you decide whether to trust the info they spout?
Rans6....
I'm sure you can all figure out who I am and what I fly in the real world,....
6 of one, half a dozen of the other I think.
I've been involved in leisure aviation for most of my adult life, both on a hobby and professional basis.
I've had attempts to bribe me - which was solveable by referring to the right authorities because somebody could not do that anonymously. I've had threats sent to my home - which was inavoidable because as an employed professional I couldn't be anonymous.
And I've been approached by people from CAA, LAA and AAIB at various times because of things I'd posted, as Genghis, on Pprune - which shows clearly that if you are going to say anything meaningful regularly, there really is no true anonymity. On the other hand it is very hard to formally hold me to task for anything I say as Genghis, which is the reason I'm not going to give my real name on Pprune, where my identity is and has been for years as GTE and I'm quite happy to be identified as such.
But on the BMAA forum I use my real name, and if I was a member of the LAA forum I'd be quite happy to use that there also. Because I'm a member of both, and prefer to contribute to a members organisation as a named member.
G
I've been involved in leisure aviation for most of my adult life, both on a hobby and professional basis.
I've had attempts to bribe me - which was solveable by referring to the right authorities because somebody could not do that anonymously. I've had threats sent to my home - which was inavoidable because as an employed professional I couldn't be anonymous.
And I've been approached by people from CAA, LAA and AAIB at various times because of things I'd posted, as Genghis, on Pprune - which shows clearly that if you are going to say anything meaningful regularly, there really is no true anonymity. On the other hand it is very hard to formally hold me to task for anything I say as Genghis, which is the reason I'm not going to give my real name on Pprune, where my identity is and has been for years as GTE and I'm quite happy to be identified as such.
But on the BMAA forum I use my real name, and if I was a member of the LAA forum I'd be quite happy to use that there also. Because I'm a member of both, and prefer to contribute to a members organisation as a named member.
G
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Personally, I tend to prefer forums (Forae?) where people post under their own ID's, as the discussion tends to remain more civilised; I generally take the view that you should never say something to someone on a forum that you wouldn't be happy to say face-to-face over a drink in a bar.
Anonymity tends to allow the uncensored 'ID' to surface, with associated trollery, and also the thoroughly unpleasant flamings for which Pprune has become known. Hence, I post under my own name, and IMHE generally find that the most productive conversations come with people who do similarly. Conversely, those who go to the greatest lengths to conceal their identities, tend to talk the most vituperative, verbose rubbish - Snsguppy and Sternone, where are you now...?
However, there are circumstances when the ability to pose a question on a forum under a 'nom-de-plume' is very valuable - and, for the OP, might be damned essential; airworthiness, medical and possible enfringement posts are all such circumstances where the originator of the post may want to ask a question of other forumites, without being instantly fingered as the pilot with potential problems - where there maybe none!
Similarly, if I was wealthy or in the public eye, I'd want to be able to ask the normal questions that anyone would want to, without the baggage that goes with wealth or celebrity. If, say, Katie Price, wanted to be able to ask straightforward questions about aircraft, it would be nice to do so without collecting loads of replies concerning baloons.
I seriously question as to why that facility should be considered so worrying by the LAA and, if the origin of that censorship is an intollerance of criticism of the forum parent company, that is the WRONG motivation.
Anonymity tends to allow the uncensored 'ID' to surface, with associated trollery, and also the thoroughly unpleasant flamings for which Pprune has become known. Hence, I post under my own name, and IMHE generally find that the most productive conversations come with people who do similarly. Conversely, those who go to the greatest lengths to conceal their identities, tend to talk the most vituperative, verbose rubbish - Snsguppy and Sternone, where are you now...?
However, there are circumstances when the ability to pose a question on a forum under a 'nom-de-plume' is very valuable - and, for the OP, might be damned essential; airworthiness, medical and possible enfringement posts are all such circumstances where the originator of the post may want to ask a question of other forumites, without being instantly fingered as the pilot with potential problems - where there maybe none!
Similarly, if I was wealthy or in the public eye, I'd want to be able to ask the normal questions that anyone would want to, without the baggage that goes with wealth or celebrity. If, say, Katie Price, wanted to be able to ask straightforward questions about aircraft, it would be nice to do so without collecting loads of replies concerning baloons.
I seriously question as to why that facility should be considered so worrying by the LAA and, if the origin of that censorship is an intollerance of criticism of the forum parent company, that is the WRONG motivation.
Last edited by wsmempson; 5th Apr 2012 at 11:41. Reason: shocking standards of illiteracy
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I've been involved in leisure aviation for most of my adult life, both on a hobby and professional basis.
There are several situations where I would not want my hobby to become knowledge to the people I'm dealing with in my professional life. For instance my employer doesn't need to know how much time I spend on here during business hours - even though I put in the work he pays me for. Also, my customers, suppliers, business partners and other professional contacts I maintain as part of my job don't need to know about my hobby. Whether that's because it's seen as a rich mans game, or a dangerous game (aerobatics!) or something else doesn't really matter. I try to keep my professional life separate from my private life.
I don't mind regular PPRuNers on here to learn my real name. I have given enough clues in the past so that it should not be that hard to figure out, and you can always PM me.
But I do mind a professional contact doing a quick Google search of my name, and finding a few thousands postings on here. For the same reason I do not have an active Facebook account, and only very rarely Twittr. But there are some Usenet postings going back about 20 years, under my real name.
The internet never forgets. And Google will find it all.
(Deliberate misspelling of Twittr otherwise PPRuNe mangles it into PPRuNe.)
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Excellent points, in above 4 posts especially.
Another thing is that if you ask a question here (more in say the ATC or Prof Training forums) you get a lot of potential respondents looking up your profile and posting some ridiculing reply.
The CAA do read these forums constantly; it is a popular pastime there, in some quarters
Another thing is that if you ask a question here (more in say the ATC or Prof Training forums) you get a lot of potential respondents looking up your profile and posting some ridiculing reply.
The CAA do read these forums constantly; it is a popular pastime there, in some quarters
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There are some legitimate reasons for not divulging your correct name and contact details on what could be a forum accessible by the public. To give one example, some years ago I was webmaster for a club site, one of our committee was a public official working in trading standards. As a result he was in regular contact with the less than salubrious members of society. He requested that his details were removed from the site, I immediately complied with this and think that it was the right thing to do.
On the subject of the LAA itself, it is not the only such organisation in which the hierarchy is inpenetrable by ordinary members. Try getting elected to the committee of the Caravan Club (or it's main rival, the C&CC) if you are not a certain "type", who puts one self about in certain quarters. You are not even allowed to canvas support! (seen as electioneering, which simply "not done old boy") So these sort of organisations are not really interested in anything other than the status quo. In this the LAA is by no means unique. One must accept this if you want the benefit of mnembership.
On the subject of the LAA itself, it is not the only such organisation in which the hierarchy is inpenetrable by ordinary members. Try getting elected to the committee of the Caravan Club (or it's main rival, the C&CC) if you are not a certain "type", who puts one self about in certain quarters. You are not even allowed to canvas support! (seen as electioneering, which simply "not done old boy") So these sort of organisations are not really interested in anything other than the status quo. In this the LAA is by no means unique. One must accept this if you want the benefit of mnembership.
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Spot on, dawdler
The LAA recruits from within. If you don't fit the current way of operating you won't get close to any decision-making post.
It means that it will stay as a kit-builders organisation and won't move beyond that
The LAA recruits from within. If you don't fit the current way of operating you won't get close to any decision-making post.
It means that it will stay as a kit-builders organisation and won't move beyond that
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I have to disagree quite vehemently with Dawdler and Robin. I had been a member and owner for several years.
I then built an aircraft from plans (not a kit!!). I had minor interaction (modifications) with PFA HQ in Shoreham and was not a member of a Strut.
My a/c won a prize at that year's rally and post prize giving, in the bar I had an honest and up-front chat about the state of the the service from PFA Engineering, with several of the "wheels".
A couple of weeks later I was contacted by my local Strut and asked to give a talk about building from scratch, which I was happy to do. Mere days later I received a call from CM, the then Chairman of the EC asking if I would stand in the upcoming election. I had never met CM or any of the EC, apart from one fellow in the bar at the Rally! I ran and was elected.
I was given a specific brief to prepare a report on a certain aspect of the organisation. I did and many of my recommendations were accepted and acted upon. I am not a committee kind of guy and the time involvement coupled with my recently divorced status caused me to resign in the last year of my term.
My experience varies enormously from Robin and Dawdler's.
One can get involved and one can change things! Permit turn arounds now happen in days not weeks!!!
Stik
I then built an aircraft from plans (not a kit!!). I had minor interaction (modifications) with PFA HQ in Shoreham and was not a member of a Strut.
My a/c won a prize at that year's rally and post prize giving, in the bar I had an honest and up-front chat about the state of the the service from PFA Engineering, with several of the "wheels".
A couple of weeks later I was contacted by my local Strut and asked to give a talk about building from scratch, which I was happy to do. Mere days later I received a call from CM, the then Chairman of the EC asking if I would stand in the upcoming election. I had never met CM or any of the EC, apart from one fellow in the bar at the Rally! I ran and was elected.
I was given a specific brief to prepare a report on a certain aspect of the organisation. I did and many of my recommendations were accepted and acted upon. I am not a committee kind of guy and the time involvement coupled with my recently divorced status caused me to resign in the last year of my term.
My experience varies enormously from Robin and Dawdler's.
One can get involved and one can change things! Permit turn arounds now happen in days not weeks!!!
Stik
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the amount of petty infighting and politics involved in many clubs and societies never ceases to amaze me.
There is a strong element of character-based self-selection, facilitated by the voulnteer nature of these organisations meaning that very few capable individuals put themselves forward to start with.
So you often get an aggressive/arrogant "personality" in charge; often from certain high public profile professions well known for employing that kind of profile
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The worst people to have in a volunteer club, in my experience, are actually the CV builders.
At least the type Peter describes is someone who wants to do something for the club. Whether the rest of the club wants to head in the same direction is a different matter, but at least there is some movement.
But I have been on the board of various clubs where young adults, typically university students, would apply, give a speech at the general assembly, get elected for a term of three years, and then find out that there's actually work to do when you're member of the board. And not all of that work is visible, rewarding, or directly related to the cause of the club.
(At one of the clubs it took us about six months to get the garbage disposal sorted - for some reason all the contracts with the municipality were wrong, mislaid, in the wrong name, or there was confusion over which bin belonged to which neighbor. Sorting that out is not the kind of job you apply for as a member of the board, but a necessity nevertheless.)
So they may pull their weight for a few months, then find that their CV has been built enough. They stop doing whatever they were doing, but still occupy that seat for the next few years. And all that time the other board members have to step in, either motivating/threatening/bullying that member into doing whatever they're supposed to be doing, or doing it themselves. And of course these members don't quit (looks bad on their CV) and you can't get them removed either without a very lengthy process involving the general assembly. It's very frustrating.
At least the type Peter describes is someone who wants to do something for the club. Whether the rest of the club wants to head in the same direction is a different matter, but at least there is some movement.
But I have been on the board of various clubs where young adults, typically university students, would apply, give a speech at the general assembly, get elected for a term of three years, and then find out that there's actually work to do when you're member of the board. And not all of that work is visible, rewarding, or directly related to the cause of the club.
(At one of the clubs it took us about six months to get the garbage disposal sorted - for some reason all the contracts with the municipality were wrong, mislaid, in the wrong name, or there was confusion over which bin belonged to which neighbor. Sorting that out is not the kind of job you apply for as a member of the board, but a necessity nevertheless.)
So they may pull their weight for a few months, then find that their CV has been built enough. They stop doing whatever they were doing, but still occupy that seat for the next few years. And all that time the other board members have to step in, either motivating/threatening/bullying that member into doing whatever they're supposed to be doing, or doing it themselves. And of course these members don't quit (looks bad on their CV) and you can't get them removed either without a very lengthy process involving the general assembly. It's very frustrating.
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Have just posted this on the LAA forum ... will be interesting to have responses from fellow LAA members.
Hmnnn…
There are two very active aviation websites used in the UK: “PPrUNe” and “FLYER”.
Both cover the aviation scene in depth with GA being the main focus for Flyer.
In my experience aviators tend to be extrovert types with sometimes quite strong opinions on many controversial non flying subjects: E.g. Politics, gender, religion, immigration, etc, etc.
Again in my experience no one posts anything other than aviation related stuff on the various aviation forums, and that is how is ought to be.
However both Flyer and PPrUNe have non aviation sections where pilots can let off steam about controversial topics. “Jet Blast” on PPrUNe is certainly not the place to go if you are faint hearted … within reason almost anything goes and serious amounts of hot air get released. I have huge admiration for the mods on that site, they consistently get the balance right to maintain order without destroying the debate.
“Non Aviation Stuff” on FLYER is rather different in that it has definite ‘no go zones’ reflecting the left leaning views of the owner. Two resident lawyers and a heavyweight mod ensure that any posts that do not fit the party line are promptly removed. Fair enough, it’s their train set and they can set the rules. Within certain boundaries however it is still possible to let off quite a bit of hot air here as well.
So where am I going in this message? Well shoot me down in flames if you like, but it seems to me that a similar non aviation section to discuss controversial topics might be appropriate here on the LAA forum. Not the same as the two above but more on the lines of the ‘House of Lords’ as compared to the rowdy ‘Commons’. Use of real names tends to make posters think before posting, and avoid personal insults and innuendoes. Polite interchange with reasoned rebuttal can actually change opinions, where loud mouthed rants and insults simply harden opinion.
Anyway it’s just a suggestion to liven up a rather underused forum, and I will go away and hide if the general opinion is it’s rubbish.
There are two very active aviation websites used in the UK: “PPrUNe” and “FLYER”.
Both cover the aviation scene in depth with GA being the main focus for Flyer.
In my experience aviators tend to be extrovert types with sometimes quite strong opinions on many controversial non flying subjects: E.g. Politics, gender, religion, immigration, etc, etc.
Again in my experience no one posts anything other than aviation related stuff on the various aviation forums, and that is how is ought to be.
However both Flyer and PPrUNe have non aviation sections where pilots can let off steam about controversial topics. “Jet Blast” on PPrUNe is certainly not the place to go if you are faint hearted … within reason almost anything goes and serious amounts of hot air get released. I have huge admiration for the mods on that site, they consistently get the balance right to maintain order without destroying the debate.
“Non Aviation Stuff” on FLYER is rather different in that it has definite ‘no go zones’ reflecting the left leaning views of the owner. Two resident lawyers and a heavyweight mod ensure that any posts that do not fit the party line are promptly removed. Fair enough, it’s their train set and they can set the rules. Within certain boundaries however it is still possible to let off quite a bit of hot air here as well.
So where am I going in this message? Well shoot me down in flames if you like, but it seems to me that a similar non aviation section to discuss controversial topics might be appropriate here on the LAA forum. Not the same as the two above but more on the lines of the ‘House of Lords’ as compared to the rowdy ‘Commons’. Use of real names tends to make posters think before posting, and avoid personal insults and innuendoes. Polite interchange with reasoned rebuttal can actually change opinions, where loud mouthed rants and insults simply harden opinion.
Anyway it’s just a suggestion to liven up a rather underused forum, and I will go away and hide if the general opinion is it’s rubbish.
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Nothing wrong with the idea but not sure why the LAA forum needs it when you've got the two sites you mention already.
My contention is that the LAA forum should be THE place to go for AVIATION information but it's not.
My contention is that the LAA forum should be THE place to go for AVIATION information but it's not.
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I was a member of a national hobby interest society for many years. They were very similar to the PFA/LAA in structure and philosophy. The best phrase I heard that sums up most of these organisations is a "self perpetuating oligarchy".