Reduction in French airfields with Customs
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Reduction in French airfields with Customs
This has popped up. Does anybody know anything about it?
It seems to be a move on a vast scale - if it is real.
With both Toussus (that one happened a while ago) and now Pontoise gone, no more light-GA trips to Paris from the UK...
It seems to be a move on a vast scale - if it is real.
With both Toussus (that one happened a while ago) and now Pontoise gone, no more light-GA trips to Paris from the UK...
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From: Plumpton Green
It seems to be a move on a vast scale - if it is real.
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From: London
Is there a process, such as the GAR form in the UK, that one could use to land at non-immigration airfields in France?
For Germany, you can fax the regional border police with aircraft and passport details, and they may or may not grant an exemption.
For Germany, you can fax the regional border police with aircraft and passport details, and they may or may not grant an exemption.
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From: Stuttgart, Germany
Tell your local MP that the UK should join Schengen, it doesn't even have "Europe" in its name!
How much non Schengen traffic do GA airfields in France and Germany have these days? Very little so it's quite understandable. In Germany it's still quite relaxed, most public airfields (the ones with mandatory opening hours) offer non Schengen arrival free of charge but they keep increasing the O/R timeframe because the border police continues to close down branch offices and therefore often have a long drive. In Switzerland I was charged 60 CHF customs fee at a very small grass airstrip (and they didn't even show up, for that money I really expected a lot more).
The other day I learned that during the days of the Mad Cow, all GA airfields with non Schengen arrivals got mobile disinfection bassins which were to be placed in front of the doors of all aircraft coming from the UK. They were used once or twice at my aerodrome in all those years (and now forgotten). A lot of infrastructure for very few people.
How much non Schengen traffic do GA airfields in France and Germany have these days? Very little so it's quite understandable. In Germany it's still quite relaxed, most public airfields (the ones with mandatory opening hours) offer non Schengen arrival free of charge but they keep increasing the O/R timeframe because the border police continues to close down branch offices and therefore often have a long drive. In Switzerland I was charged 60 CHF customs fee at a very small grass airstrip (and they didn't even show up, for that money I really expected a lot more).
The other day I learned that during the days of the Mad Cow, all GA airfields with non Schengen arrivals got mobile disinfection bassins which were to be placed in front of the doors of all aircraft coming from the UK. They were used once or twice at my aerodrome in all those years (and now forgotten). A lot of infrastructure for very few people.
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How much non Schengen traffic do GA airfields in France and Germany have these days? Very little so it's quite understandable.
Germany less so, but Germany is not showing signs of chopping its Customs airports.
I don't really understand the cost saving which is to be obtained, with an airport which is already "Customs PNR". Most of the time nobody turns up anyway.
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From: France
Before y'all get the UK to join Schengen, take note that Our Glorious Leader is threatening to take France out of Schengen if those incompetent Spaniards, Portugese, Italians and Greeks don't stop foreigners landing on their warm Mediterranean shores and then walking into France (en route to Calais so they can leave again, mostly).
So (if he gets re-elected) we'll be getting border controls back on all points of entry by road, rail, sea and air. Jobs for everyone.
So (if he gets re-elected) we'll be getting border controls back on all points of entry by road, rail, sea and air. Jobs for everyone.
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From: Plumpton Green
... Our Glorious Leader is threatening to take France out of Schengen if those incompetent Spaniards, Portugese, Italians and Greeks don't stop foreigners landing on their warm Mediterranean shores and then walking into France (en route to Calais so they can leave again, mostly).
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From: UK
It is one of the world's great ironies that immigrants walk across Schengen to get to the off shore island. The border controls seem to be pretty ineffective, so maybe we could join Schengen and make the Borders Agency redundant. I'm betting there'd be no nett effect.
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I do not believe this measure is anything to do with illegal immigration. If it was, the places with Customs would be well policed but they aren't. I have never seen a policeman at most of the French ones. Maybe they sit in a hidden office with binoculars and look for passengers of dark complexion who have straight necks and flat backs of their heads?
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From: ZRH
Fact is, Peter, they are closing off most of the GA fields to planes coming from the UK and Switzerland. Where I think they are mistaken is in the fact that they regard Switzerland as a Schengen Member (which it is) but forget that we need customs as we are not in the EU. The result is very unpleasant however, as some of the airports targeted are very popular GA places, e.g. Anemasse which houses most of Geneva's GA including Swiss registered planes effectively operating from there to Switzerland. Well, no more. Training flights to Colmar and Epinal are also a thing of the past, as well as ski tourism from Switzerland or the UK to Courchevel e.t.c.
What does seem strange is that the French customs authority seems to have done this without even consulting either the DGAC nor the airports concerned. They simply published the new lists.
Actually, there still is a customs airport near Paris, which is Lognes, but it's VFR only.
Major problem will be for the Channel Islands and it's French visitors or Islanders trying to fly to France. With Toussus gone from the list, flights from Paris to the Islands is impossible.
Another grave stone in European GA I am afraid.
What does seem strange is that the French customs authority seems to have done this without even consulting either the DGAC nor the airports concerned. They simply published the new lists.
Actually, there still is a customs airport near Paris, which is Lognes, but it's VFR only.
Major problem will be for the Channel Islands and it's French visitors or Islanders trying to fly to France. With Toussus gone from the list, flights from Paris to the Islands is impossible.
Another grave stone in European GA I am afraid.
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Yes; I agree.
Unless somebody (the French airports who are going to lose say 1/3 of their business) kicks up a lot of stink and rolls back this stupid proposal.
The reality is that you can still get Customs if you pay. The other day I was at Biggin Hill and a jet was departing for Toussus, which has "lost" its Customs some time ago. How was this sorted out? Obviously, with a payment to the French Customs
So what has happened is that "Customs PNR" has been replaced with what was always in place which is "Customs on Payment" I gather the payment is 3 figures.
But as always there is a winner waiting in the wings. The remaining Customs airports are rubbing their hands because they will be collecting landing fees for doing nothing. But logistically, for the pilot, this is stupid because how much time to allow in the filing of the onward flight plan? 30 mins should do, I suppose. Then you have the extra fuel burn of the approach and climb.
Unless somebody (the French airports who are going to lose say 1/3 of their business) kicks up a lot of stink and rolls back this stupid proposal.
The reality is that you can still get Customs if you pay. The other day I was at Biggin Hill and a jet was departing for Toussus, which has "lost" its Customs some time ago. How was this sorted out? Obviously, with a payment to the French Customs
So what has happened is that "Customs PNR" has been replaced with what was always in place which is "Customs on Payment"
I gather the payment is 3 figures.But as always there is a winner waiting in the wings. The remaining Customs airports are rubbing their hands because they will be collecting landing fees for doing nothing. But logistically, for the pilot, this is stupid because how much time to allow in the filing of the onward flight plan? 30 mins should do, I suppose. Then you have the extra fuel burn of the approach and climb.
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From: Ansião (PT)
Another grave stone in European GA I am afraid.
As for the UK joining Schengen, well one never knows. Perhaps they'll dislike Schengen less if once it has been updated according to Mr. Sarkozy's desiderata.
But if the Tommies prefer their splendid isolation, who are they to complain?
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From: Dublin
Unfortunately it affects us in Ireland too.
We are also out side the Schengen area.
I think there is little doubt that Ireland would join in an instant, except for the difficulty it would create for our land border in Northern Ireland.
Currently there are no customs controls there becuase of the common travel area between UK & ROI. However if ROI were to join Schengen then that would end and we'd need formal immigration controls on this border (and on all our UK-Ireland flights and ferries.
We are also out side the Schengen area.
I think there is little doubt that Ireland would join in an instant, except for the difficulty it would create for our land border in Northern Ireland.
Currently there are no customs controls there becuase of the common travel area between UK & ROI. However if ROI were to join Schengen then that would end and we'd need formal immigration controls on this border (and on all our UK-Ireland flights and ferries.
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That's an interesting point, because Irish pilots have a lot further to travel to "somewhere interesting" - as do Scottish ones
The stupid thing about all this is that to clear Schengen you will need to land at some French airport which has Customs, everybody has to get out, one person pays the landing fee while the others hang around, nobody looks at your passports, and then you walk out again and fly off. A complete total waste of at least half an hour, plus a few gallons of fuel.
And then the same thing coming back to the UK, when it is an even bigger waste of time because France has absolutely zero interest in who is leaving the country. One could file for e.g. LTQ and while in the air divert to say Lydd, which I am sure will work (it is a very old established aviation practice) but the question is how often you can do that before somebody notices.
The stupid thing about all this is that to clear Schengen you will need to land at some French airport which has Customs, everybody has to get out, one person pays the landing fee while the others hang around, nobody looks at your passports, and then you walk out again and fly off. A complete total waste of at least half an hour, plus a few gallons of fuel.
And then the same thing coming back to the UK, when it is an even bigger waste of time because France has absolutely zero interest in who is leaving the country. One could file for e.g. LTQ and while in the air divert to say Lydd, which I am sure will work (it is a very old established aviation practice) but the question is how often you can do that before somebody notices.
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From: ZRH
Jan,
Err, how?
The only way to settle it would be for Switzerland to join the EU? Which is not going to happen in most of our lifetimes hopefully.
There are other ideas floating around such as to declare a bilateral customs agreement to the effect that private aircraft not carrying commercial goods would be exempt from using Airports of Entry, but the way I understand it, our very own customs organisations is barricading against that.
Well, if Sarkozy does what he promises now and leaves Schengen if re-elected, then he can't keep this up unless he wishes to isolate France from most of Europe. On the other hand, if Hollande wins, who will want to go there? I somehow can't see someone who wishes to impose 78% income tax to be supportive of GA, rather to pull a "Monti" and tax it to death there too.
But the FR <=> CH issues should be settled rather soon, I suppose?
The only way to settle it would be for Switzerland to join the EU? Which is not going to happen in most of our lifetimes hopefully.
There are other ideas floating around such as to declare a bilateral customs agreement to the effect that private aircraft not carrying commercial goods would be exempt from using Airports of Entry, but the way I understand it, our very own customs organisations is barricading against that.
Well, if Sarkozy does what he promises now and leaves Schengen if re-elected, then he can't keep this up unless he wishes to isolate France from most of Europe. On the other hand, if Hollande wins, who will want to go there? I somehow can't see someone who wishes to impose 78% income tax to be supportive of GA, rather to pull a "Monti" and tax it to death there too.
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Why does Sarky want to leave Schengen?
There are no effective road controls between France and its land neighbours and AFAIK never have been (Switzerland excepted but everybody knows about them ).
What's in it for France?
There are no effective road controls between France and its land neighbours and AFAIK never have been (Switzerland excepted but everybody knows about them
).What's in it for France?
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From: ZRH
Peter,
you have to understand that Sarkozy is up against the socialist Hollande and the right wing Marie Le Pen. In the first election round, it is expected that Le Pen will drop out and there will be a face off between Hollande and Sarkozy. That is why he is trying even now to get the right wing bunch on his side.
The issue he claims with Schengen is the uncontrolled influx of foreigners through Spain and a lesser degree Italy. It's all rethorics, yet he may well deliver if it suits him.
So the question you ask is wrong. It's not, what's in it for France, but what's in it for Sarkozy.
At the same time, he wishes to massively reduce government spending, looking at that, I somehow don't see him bringing back A of E status to these airports now.
Jan,
well, looking at the US election right now, theater is not limited to the latin part of the world... in politics, theater is the most popular modus operandus. Problem is, a lot of these people have long forgotten where the stage ends and real life begins.
you have to understand that Sarkozy is up against the socialist Hollande and the right wing Marie Le Pen. In the first election round, it is expected that Le Pen will drop out and there will be a face off between Hollande and Sarkozy. That is why he is trying even now to get the right wing bunch on his side.
The issue he claims with Schengen is the uncontrolled influx of foreigners through Spain and a lesser degree Italy. It's all rethorics, yet he may well deliver if it suits him.
So the question you ask is wrong. It's not, what's in it for France, but what's in it for Sarkozy.
At the same time, he wishes to massively reduce government spending, looking at that, I somehow don't see him bringing back A of E status to these airports now.
Jan,
well, looking at the US election right now, theater is not limited to the latin part of the world... in politics, theater is the most popular modus operandus. Problem is, a lot of these people have long forgotten where the stage ends and real life begins.
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he wishes to massively reduce government spending
That way, Customs get 20 euros for doing nothing, because they virtually never turn up anyway.
This is what happens anyway with bizjets, which can arrange Customs in all kinds of places, but they pay a lot more for it - to the handling agent; quite how he organises it I don't know.
