highest flight in a cessna 152/172?
I have climbed (walked) to 5800 meters without any problems, so I expect to have no oxygen issues at least.
If your goal is simply to remain conscious, then yes, you should be OK. Making critical decisions while operating complex machinery, not so much.
I'm reasonably fit and spend a fair amount of time exerting myself at significant altitude. If I'm planning to spend more than a trivial amount of time above 10,000' I go on oxygen - if it's fitted then use it! I've experimented with someone else (with them on oxygen) flying at various heights and found I'm just not as good at complex tasks, even at what seem like comparatively benign levels. Map reading becomes more difficult, even with a GPS moving display in front of you... Imagine attempting to deal with a serious emergency at the same time.
Starving your brain of oxygen is not a good idea under any circumstances, let alone when flying an aircraft. Those who have run sessions in an altitude chamber will tell you that it affects everyone in a different way but no-one improves!
There are some really good portable electronic oxygen systems around, for purchase or hire. You can put on a cannula, turn the kit on, then forget about it... No excuses, really.
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There is a big difference between walking up a hill and flying up to the same altitude.
In 2002 I walked up Mt Kinabalu - 14000ft or so I think. No problem at all - when I wasn't moving
But it took ~20 hrs to walk up there, with breaks etc, so you get a chance to get used to it. A plane would have got to 14k in some tens of minutes.
The walks up Mt Kilimanjaro (~20k) are done over 5 days.
I have flown to 20k on cannulas (I do have a mask with a mike but it is pretty naff) and you really have to breathe deliberately. A deep inhalation before each ATC readback
In 2002 I walked up Mt Kinabalu - 14000ft or so I think. No problem at all - when I wasn't moving
But it took ~20 hrs to walk up there, with breaks etc, so you get a chance to get used to it. A plane would have got to 14k in some tens of minutes.The walks up Mt Kilimanjaro (~20k) are done over 5 days.
I have flown to 20k on cannulas (I do have a mask with a mike but it is pretty naff) and you really have to breathe deliberately. A deep inhalation before each ATC readback
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You mean you want to fly there without oxygen?
Not in a Cessna, but 4800 metres in a glider. Missed my diamond height by 800 metres or thereabouts with a tow to 600 metres. Lots of flights to around 4000 metres in gliders. Oxygen, decent warm clothes. Minus 40 c isn't unusual. 
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Ah yes, forgot about that, I've been higher in a glider than a light aircraft. Got up to 8,300 for my silver height and was still going up like a lift. Daren't go any higher as it was
1. Bloody cold
2. Didn't have any O2.
1. Bloody cold
2. Didn't have any O2.
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I've flown the corridors at Grand Canyon a few times in the 152 up to 11,500. Once a tour pilot replied "How'd you get up there?" Solo, on a cold winter's day, it's no problem to the lovely little 152.
I've also crossed the Sierras in the 160HP 172R at 14,500 for 30 mins or less, solo and in the winter. But nowadays I look for lower routes, like the Donner pass, because of the hypoxia issues already discussed and because in winter, the terrain only 2000' below looks very uninviting.
14,500 is about the practical ceiling for the 160HP 172 although the SP might go a bit higher. I did have to go up there for a few minutes in the summer a couple of years back to remain clear of a dust storm, but it's really grasping for air in warm temps, as is the pilot.
I've also crossed the Sierras in the 160HP 172R at 14,500 for 30 mins or less, solo and in the winter. But nowadays I look for lower routes, like the Donner pass, because of the hypoxia issues already discussed and because in winter, the terrain only 2000' below looks very uninviting.
14,500 is about the practical ceiling for the 160HP 172 although the SP might go a bit higher. I did have to go up there for a few minutes in the summer a couple of years back to remain clear of a dust storm, but it's really grasping for air in warm temps, as is the pilot.
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You guys should really look at a portable oxygen kit.
It really improves your options, and makes flying much safer because you can go above the weather and terrain.
My notes on oxygen systems here are a little old now but they cover the basics and nowadays one would go to Mountain High every time as they make the best stuff. Get the 48 cu ft. carbon/kevlar cylinder, the 1st stage regulator, and either oxysaver cannulas or the O2D2 demand reg and plain cannulas. This kit is described at the end, and also in a comparative test here which really upset one of their competitors but when I kept asking him for data to support his assertions he kept telling me he was on his way to the airport and would get back to me
It really improves your options, and makes flying much safer because you can go above the weather and terrain.
My notes on oxygen systems here are a little old now but they cover the basics and nowadays one would go to Mountain High every time as they make the best stuff. Get the 48 cu ft. carbon/kevlar cylinder, the 1st stage regulator, and either oxysaver cannulas or the O2D2 demand reg and plain cannulas. This kit is described at the end, and also in a comparative test here which really upset one of their competitors but when I kept asking him for data to support his assertions he kept telling me he was on his way to the airport and would get back to me
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Plus, I would have gathered numerous hours at slowly incrementing altitudes before even considering a fly-by like that……..
Well, that would be the plan; yes. HOWEVER, that is the final stage of a period where I would test myself and the aircraft at 3000 meters, 4000 meters, 5000 meters etc. Not that I´m going there next week and just "give it a shot". I intend to take mountain flying in general real slow, and very serious……..as I said, it would be a future goal.
Point taken………I will.
###Ultra Long Hauler###
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Ultra Long Hauler, I like your attitude towards mountain flying. Although I want to point out that you really can't train yourself by flying a few times at 3000m then 4000m and so on. Similar to high altitude training of athletics you would need to stay at this altitude for some weeks. Then, your lung would adapt to air cointaining little oxygen. Also I strongly recommend to have another pilot with you. I believe you would not realize the lack of oxygen until it's too late.
I live in the Swiss alps above 5000 feet, I'm young, don't smoke. When flying e.g. to Italy over the alps at up to 12500ft I don't feel any changes in concentration. Still I would fly according to the FARs.
I live in the Swiss alps above 5000 feet, I'm young, don't smoke. When flying e.g. to Italy over the alps at up to 12500ft I don't feel any changes in concentration. Still I would fly according to the FARs.
Highest I ever did in Winter with my Cessna 150 at the time was FL160 for a few minutes. With the Mooney (180HP non turbo), 140-150 is normal over the alps.
I got myself a little pulse oxymeter to get all doubt out of the way. They are quite cheap these days at 34 Euros and I got them within a day or two delivered from Spain.
These you can carry along and see what happens. Anything below 93% is considered to indicate reduced reactions, below 90% is no good. Usually, that happens above about 10'000 ft. At FL140 expect about 85%, which is definitly not enough anymore.
I got myself a little pulse oxymeter to get all doubt out of the way. They are quite cheap these days at 34 Euros and I got them within a day or two delivered from Spain.
These you can carry along and see what happens. Anything below 93% is considered to indicate reduced reactions, below 90% is no good. Usually, that happens above about 10'000 ft. At FL140 expect about 85%, which is definitly not enough anymore.
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Gosh that is cheap. I must have paid 300 euros for my Nonin one, some years back.
But.... they have come down. I see some on Ebay down to £16.
I am normally happy at the low 90s. A mask is a lot better; I've seen 98-99% at FL180 with a mask (not me though).
But.... they have come down. I see some on Ebay down to £16.
I am normally happy at the low 90s. A mask is a lot better; I've seen 98-99% at FL180 with a mask (not me though).
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Ultra Long Hauler, I like your attitude towards mountain flying. Although I want to point out that you really can't train yourself by flying a few times at 3000m then 4000m and so on. Similar to high altitude training of athletics you would need to stay at this altitude for some weeks. Then, your lung would adapt to air containing little oxygen.
However, 3.000 + meters is where I need to go to even land in the Andes anyway.
I don´t see a problem because the road I normally take reaches 4.000 meters, and I drive that on a weekly basis sometimes. I spent huge amounts of time around the 3.000 meter level (weeks on end), not 1 second did I ever notice anything different apart from a mild shortness of breath while running. No sweat flying a plane then either, surely.
So, if I would take off for some scenic trips from there, let´s say up to 4.000 meters (where I normally tend operate a car) and the plane feels good, I feel good, and I slowly get a feel for the stronger winds etc; I feel that the next step could be 4.500 meter etc etc. Again, I´m talking about harmless good weather trips, not complicated close mountain X-country flights. Just like everybody else in this thread, you first have to do it to know what it feels like and take your decisions from there, right?
However, I do not agree that if you start to feel the consequences of altitude that it is somehow "too late"........unless you have yourself in a real bind which requires maximum concentration, THAT would be a BooBoo. My idea is to do straightforward flights in benign weather, low risk; not too far away from the airport and simply assess it from there.
I know for a fact I´m fine at 4.000 meters, so I´d go slowly from there.
There are a few people in this thread that have survived the initial symptoms whilst flying--> height sickness is the easiest disease to cure---> get "DOWN DOWN DOWN"!! That´s what I have seen with people I´ve taken up to 5000 meter and beyond (by car); anyway.
###Ultra Long Hauler###
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I do not agree that if you start to feel the consequences of altitude that it is somehow "too late"
He is still alive - after a lot of surgery. He was incredibly lucky.
So, I wouldn't try it.
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I know of a few who weren't so lucky. Downplaying the risks of hypoxia is a really bloody stupid thing to do. No old bold pilots and all that...
Damn are those finger oxymeters cheap! I might just go and get myself one.
DG800
Damn are those finger oxymeters cheap! I might just go and get myself one.
DG800
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But I doubt he climbed to an altitude where he usually used to drive, walk, and (for certain altitudes discussed) live! I don´t see myself passing out at an altitude where I spend quite a bit of time on a regular basis.
That would mean that every Private Pilot in the Andes would have to fly with oxygen……….and the majority doesn´t; with no horror stories that I can recall.
To go higher than the above, I already took your earlier advice to heart and I will definitely look into personal O2 units when the time is there!
However, you´ve got to understand that this issue is slightly different for people that reside in areas where roads quite easily climb 4000 meters in little over an hour. I am not downplaying the symptoms, and it would be "bloody stupid", to use your phraseology; to go to these altitudes unprepared for the 1st time. But having lived at 3.000 meters (still spending a lot of time there), driving and walking at 4000 meters (with excess to 5000 meters) and having not suffered from anything AT ALL in 10 years; I sincerely doubt that I will suddenly face problems flying around 4.000 meters, or there abouts; especially while operating from 3.000 meter high airstrips.
I am ONLY talking for me, the Ultra Long Hauler; because every body and every person is obviously different!!
As I said, I´ve had passengers in the car who got it bad, and we had to cancel the trip and come down as fast as possible; where soon after they recovered.
Cheers,
###Ultra Long Hauler###
How high?
I see I'm right in the middle of the pack. I've taken a 152 to 11,500' on one occasion, for just a few minutes. The flight wasn't long enough to stay there very long. It made no practical sense to go that high, but it sure was fun at the time!
I've been a glider pilot for a bit over a year. The highest I've been is 6,000' with a winch launch from 1,000' msl. I could have gone higher, but there were airspace limits.
Terry
I've been a glider pilot for a bit over a year. The highest I've been is 6,000' with a winch launch from 1,000' msl. I could have gone higher, but there were airspace limits.
Terry
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PA28
After waiting for the perfect day a fellow PPL and me took PA28-161 to FL180did take ages after passing FL130 with FPM reducing. Completed with 2 portable oxygen kits.