Layout of flight deck in LSA, (PIC)…..any feedback from you?

[Ultra long hauler]

People,

just managed to snatch a picture of my, well; call it either:

#Flight-deck
#Dashboard
#Instrument Panel - you be the judge.

It concerns a Rotax 914 powered plane, VFR only obviously:



What´s your opinion on my equipment choices? The transponder is built in the EFIS. The Garmin 296 I had left over from my old plane, so it was built in as a back up and is fully programmed.
The EFIS and analog AIS have 2 independent inputs; in short; there are 2 pitot tubes.

Notice there´s 2 little slots for 2 more analog gauges in the centre, for instance RPM´s and altitude. Suggestions?

Any feedback by experienced private pilots highly appreciated!

Do you have similar pictures of the layout in your planes perhaps?
Would love to see them!

Cheerio,

###Ultra Long Hauler###

[patowalker]

Notice there´s 2 little slots for 2 more analog gauges in the centre, for instance RPM´s and altitude. Suggestions?

In the UK you would have to install back-up analogue airspeed indicator AND altimeter. Where you are flying, I would say a back-up altimeter makes a lot of sense, especially if you are heading E.

[Pitts2112]

You've already got loads more stuff in there than any airplane I've flown in the last 15 years has had. As long as you have redundant power sources, and the reliability figures on your electronics are sufficiently high (though I don't know what that means in numbers), then I would see anything else you could add as simply gilding the lilly and possibly just throwing money at a panel for the sake of it.

The one backup gauge I would want to have is an ASI, which you have.

Overall, I'd say you've got one very-well equipped LSA there. If I was building or rebuilding one today, I'd do the same thing you did - bin the steam powered stuff and go for the electronic all-in-ones. Not only are they as cheap or cheaper than an analog fitout, you get a lot more information and the presentation is far, far more user friendly.

Out of curiosity, what are the two vernier gauges on the left side?

[Maoraigh1]

I wouldn't worry so much about an altimeter VMC, although it's a legal requirement here, and you have an ASI, but I assume there's a compas somewhere? That would be essential.
And there's no way a connection working loose can send everything crazy?

[Ultra long hauler]

Originally Posted by patowalker

In the UK you would have to install back-up analogue airspeed indicator AND altimeter. Where you are flying, I would say a back-up altimeter makes a lot of sense, especially if you are heading E.

Definitely--> East is the more dangerous, yet interesting side!
For those not in the know--> the highest mountain is over 6000 meters high, where we fly.

Originally Posted by Pitts2112

As long as you have redundant power sources

Both Garmin´s have batteries, and the Dynon screen has an external battery which yields an hour or so…..just to get down safely.

Originally Posted by Pitts2112

The one backup gauge I would want to have is an ASI, which you have.

Oh yes……..that was a must for me too!

Originally Posted by Pitts2112

Overall, I'd say you've got one very-well equipped LSA there. If I was building or rebuilding one today, I'd do the same thing you did - bin the steam powered stuff and go for the electronic all-in-ones.

I hear ya, and THANKS for your kind words!!
I thought, "let´s make it 2012-style". Others may disagree.

Originally Posted by Pitts2112

Out of curiosity, what are the two vernier gauges on the left side?

Top: Trim tab--> Nose up / down.
Bottom: Flaps

Originally Posted by Maoraigh1

but I assume there's a compas somewhere? That would be essential.

The EFIS has a compass!
No, there´s no external one. Talking to my mechanic / test pilot; he reckoned that with 3 GPS´s installed, and the EFIS compass--> I should be fine. You disagree? I´m not sure……..

Originally Posted by Maoraigh1

And there's no way a connection working loose can send everything crazy?

Well, in theory: no!
Everything has been wired the way it supposed to be, everything brand new; and backed up by a battery. So far, no probs!
Who´s to say that it still can´t go tits up though?

The thing is, navigation wise I´m well covered, airspeed wise I´m good; so the main things I would lose is the artificial horizon, and my engine parameters. It is definitely time to land if that were to happen, but I feel that I have enough data / info to achieve that safely!

As I said, I might like an analog RPM gauge.
But to install a 2nd horizon etc, is a bit over the top as I´m not even allowed to lose sight of the ground! Granted, it may happen for short amounts of time, high in the mountains; but in that worst case scenario--> the Garmin 695 provides a decent horizon too, with 7 updates a second.

Your opinion would be warmly welcomed.

Cheers,

###Ultra Long Hauler###

[Pitts2112]

To put things in perspective on how much stuff you need to safely fly VFR, most of the stuff I've flow in the last 15 years has only had:

ASI
Altimeter
Tacho
Oil pressure/temperature
slip ball
whiskey compass
hand held radio

And I've several friends who have flown to the North Cape and Norther Africa on only that fitout.

Anything else you have beyond those instruments, in a pure day VFR LSA, only buys you redundancy, not really any more capability of the machine. It also buys you some better options when the weather goes south, but in an LSA that's just looking for the nearest place to land safely, anyway.

[Genghis the Engineer]

There is certainly far more avionics there than you will ever need in an aeroplane like that. But, if they make you happy, great.

I'd suggest adding a backup altimeter, a standard emergency compass, and I'd also suggest doing something to clearly demark the two strip gauges so that you don't confuse them with each other.

I'd also add a conventional sliip ball, right in front of the pilot.

I don't like your switches - all in a straight line, all the same size shape and colour. Looks pretty, but makes it much too easy to confuse them with each other. Some appropriate guarding and colour coding may make it look less pretty, but will do a lot to improve ergonomics.

The backup ASI is missing any colour coding for operating speeds and limits.

G

[peterh337]

On the basis that I know of only one pilot who says with a straight face that he has never entered IMC while flying VFR (and it's definitely not me) then a backup horizon would be the most important instrument.

If the ***t hits the fan, it is all you may have between getting out of it and killing yourself. One cannot fly a plane without a gyro instrument, and you have just the one which depends on electrical power, not to mention a pile of electronics.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Backup AI + two electronic battery backed up AIs + pilot with no instrument training ? Does not entirely compute.

How on earth do microlight pilots, with no AI and no instrument flying training, manage such a low accident rate do you think Peter? (Worse still, many of them don't even fly with a GPS !).

G

[Ultra long hauler]

Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer

There is certainly far more avionics there than you will ever need in an aeroplane like that. But, if they make you happy, great.
G

I guess it does……..me like it!!

Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer

I'd suggest adding a backup altimeter, a standard emergency compass, and I'd also suggest doing something to clearly demark the two strip gauges so that you don't confuse them with each other.

I'd also add a conventional sliip ball, right in front of the pilot.

The slip ball is right in the middle of the EFIS. But it´s worth considering.
An emergency compass…..hmm, okay.
The gauges are both marked, quite easily visible from the pilot seat.
Also; their switches are different, see below:

Originally Posted by Genghis the Engineer

I don't like your switches - all in a straight line, all the same size shape and colour. Looks pretty, but makes it much too easy to confuse them with each other. Some appropriate guarding and colour coding may make it look less pretty, but will do a lot to improve ergonomics.

The backup ASI is missing any colour coding for operating speeds and limits.

G

Yes, it would be worth making the MASTER red, for instance.
Thanks for the advice.

That about the ASI, yes; I see your point.


And an additional horizon…….we are now talking of me sitting in the clouds (which CAN happen, granted)……..and the electronics failing at the same time; and the Garmin 695 (as an ultimate back up) also failing somehow……….it´s pretty unlikely for the amount of cloud-flying I´m doing.

Cheers for the feedback!! Some of it I will definitely implement………


###Ultra Long Hauler###

[Genghis the Engineer]

Regarding gauge marking (or switch marking) - typed labels don't do the job, however visible from the pilots seat.

You want different sizes, shapes, colours, locations and/or orientations. A quick glance at the wrong strip and reading your trim setting as your flap setting could one day bite you.

Sadly, the ergonomically best cockpits are often quite ugly. Here's an example of what I mean - a 1940s era cockpit that (apart from the Garmin 55 GPS, and the lack of colour coding on the ASI) I'm quite fond of - not by any standards pretty, but virtually impossible to mistake any control for any other (particularly look along the bottom edge of the panel).



Incidentally make sure you know where the "gyro" feed is to any electronic system trying to be an artificial horizon - make sure it really is taking a gyro, rather than an inertial feed. Also, if there is any risk of you EVER trying to use that system to get you out of IMC conditions, get some training from an instrument instructor, then practice using that training at-least twice per year. If you don't, the one time you try to use it, you'll screw up, and at best scare yourself very badly.

Regarding the slip ball - use a proper one a backup - they're dirt cheap and will be much easier to use than the computer game version. WINTER SLIP INDICATORS from Aircraft Spruce

[Ultra long hauler]

Cheers Genghis,

I will have a look at Spruce (where I bought most of the stuff anyway); perhaps I will go for an altimeter while I´m there……..and a RPM indicator too.

With regards to the gauges………the switches are luckily very different as you can see on the pic: one is silver and thin, the other is black and a lot wider.
They feel different too.

Yes, soon I will have instrument training with my instructor.
We will find a cloud……….and up to me fly straight & level, and make turns the way I suppose to, instead of what my mind tells me.

Thanks for the feedback and the interesting pic!

###Ultra Long Hauler###

[Pitts2112]

Can't fly sans gyros??? Que???

How do you arrive at THAT statement, Peter, or is my sarcasm filter on the fritz again?

Since I've got about 400 hours in aircraft with no gyros, trips including international cross countries, I beg to differ with your assertion.

ULH, I wouldn't bother with a standby tacho. After a few hours in the machine, your ear will be your tacho and you'll hardly refer to the real one other than to double-check what you already know. With the low failure rate of your electronic system, I think you'd use a standby tacho about 0 times.

Since you're in Ecuador, a standby altimeter would probably be a good investment, I would think.

[Ultra long hauler]

Originally Posted by Pitts2112

ULH, I wouldn't bother with a standby tacho. After a few hours in the machine, your ear will be your tacho and you'll hardly refer to the real one other than to double-check what you already know. With the low failure rate of your electronic system, I think you'd use a standby tacho about 0 times.

Since you're in Ecuador, a standby altimeter would probably be a good investment, I would think.

Cheers, Pits2112--> and sorry for the long delay in responding.
I was out of reach of the WWW for a few days!

I guess you´re right about getting an ear for the engine.
The altimeter, yes….it could be an idea.
I have 2 external GPS´s though, but yes, I guess it makes sense--> just for that worse case scenario.

So I think I will go with "Genghis his ball" (if he don´t mind), an Altimeter and perhaps a compass.

Cheers,

###Ultra Long Hauler###

[BackPacker]

I find analog gauges much easier to interpret than the glass-cockpit ticker-tape type gauges. I can just glance at an analog ASI and get a pretty good idea on my speed by just looking at the angle the needle makes. No need to interpret whatever number is beside it. And if the needle is moving, I can see the trend as well.

Considering that, I would add/prefer
- A small (2.5" or similar) analog MAP gauge and RPM gauge
- An analog altimeter
- An analog air speed indicator

All positioned so that they're easy to read while I'm looking outside, so near the top of the panel.

The "IFR stuff", such as the horizon, EFIS and such, can be put lower down the panel since you're not looking outside while flying IFR anyway.

Furthermore, make a distinction between stuff you need to see, and stuff you need to touch, and how often you need to see/touch stuff.

Stuff you need to see almost continuously (e.g. altimeter) needs to be in your primary field of vision. Stuff you only need once in a while (engine instruments, transponder settings) can be further away. Likewise, stuff you need to touch regularly (like throttle, trim, flap settings, radio switches) need to be easily reachable with your non-flying hand (usually your right hand). Stuff you only need to touch every now and then (like battery master, magnetos) can be put further away.

Keeping that philosophy in mind, I would move your flap/trim switches to just above the throttle quadrant. (Although the indicators are fine where they are.)

I would also reconfigure the EFIS so that the engine instruments (CHT etc) are on the secondary screen instead of the primary.

What I find surprising is your choice for lighted switches. The picture is not entirely clear but it looks like your "avionics" switch emits an orange light when it's on. If you were to use lighted switches, that would need to be a green light, since orange is normally used for caution lights, and red for warnings. But since I can see that the avionics are on, on the avionics itself, why would I need a separate indicator light for that?

Green lights on the switches for nav light and landing light are a good idea. But are your lights all dimmable, or will they be so bright as to kill your night vision when flying at night? (Right now they are already too bright for the camera, and that's in daylight.)

The push button next to your magneto switch, is that the starter? I would put some sort of guard over that, so that you can't bump into it by accident (with your knee when getting in, or with your kneeboard while seated).

What's the button underneath the prop switch?

Did you deliberately put the "trim nose up" at the top of the trim switch? In aviation, switches forward or up are always to make the aircraft "go" (or go faster). In that respect, if you press the trim switch "up" it should make the aircraft go faster, so that should trim nose down.

I assume you're going to label all your warning lights? And why do you have warning lights at the bottom of the panel? They should be as high up on the panel, in your primary field of vision (when looking out).

Why the order "master" (space) "landing light" "nav light" "avionics" "strobe". This suggests your strobe is on the avionics bus. I would do "master" (space) "strobe" "nav light" "landing light" (space) "avionics" and then the switches that are on the avionics bus. And I would put all avionics switches together, not separated by a row of fuses. (Come to think of it, I would not add separate switches for avionics anyway but just wire them into the avionics bus straight away (with a fuse added, obviously). After all, all avionics units have their own on/off switches so you can switch them off if necessary anyway. But normally they're left on, and the whole avionics package is simply switched on/off with the avionics master.)

If I were spending a lot of money on my own aircraft, I would make all fuses proper, resettable and pullable circuit breakers. Not the "blow-once and then fumble around for five minutes trying to get a new one inserted with the proper rating"-type. Specifically, I think the flap CB needs to be resettable (just in case the flap motor overheats or something like that) and the trim CB needs to be pullable (to prevent trim runaway).

I'm not entirely familiar with the Rotax 914, but shouldn't you have some sort of CB to be able to cut the alternator loose of the system? For instance if your regulator fails and causes an overvoltage?

[Rod1]

My panel was originally designed 9 years ago, but updated 3 years ago. I have one EFIS which does everything inc GPS, two slave 2 ¼ multi function gauges with backup horizon and magnetometer readout plus a full set of steam. If I was starting from scratch I would have two identical MGL colour EFIS, with a full set of backup sensors etc together with ASI, compass and airspeed steam backup. That way I would need multiple failures to knock out both EFIS units and would still be OK on the steam. My experience of uncertified EFIS equipment is that it is very reliable provided it is correctly installed according to the manufacturer. People with avionics experience that “do it there way” tend to end up in a world of pain.

Rod1

[Ultra long hauler]

Originally Posted by BackPacker

Considering that, I would add/prefer
- A small (2.5" or similar) analog MAP gauge and RPM gauge
- An analog altimeter
- An analog air speed indicator

Got ya on the MAP gauge.
Altimeter…..yes perhaps; although I have 2 additional GPS sets.
AIS: Have a look between the EFIS and the Garmin 695--> that is the only analog back up instrument I have at present. That was a must for me.

Originally Posted by BackPacker

Furthermore, make a distinction between stuff you need to see, and stuff you need to touch, and how often you need to see/touch stuff.

Stuff you need to see almost continuously (e.g. altimeter) needs to be in your primary field of vision. Stuff you only need once in a while (engine instruments, transponder settings) can be further away. Likewise, stuff you need to touch regularly (like throttle, trim, flap settings, radio switches) need to be easily reachable with your non-flying hand (usually your right hand). Stuff you only need to touch every now and then (like battery master, magnetos) can be put further away.

Keeping that philosophy in mind, I would move your flap/trim switches to just above the throttle quadrant. (Although the indicators are fine where they are.)

True, at the moment I am gripping the stick with my right hand to quickly adjust trim or flaps with the left. I guess that is a vlid suggestion!

Originally Posted by BackPacker

I would also reconfigure the EFIS so that the engine instruments (CHT etc) are on the secondary screen instead of the primary.

Ah you see BackPacker, that can be changed at any time with a push of a button. I have my favorite set up of my screen (not in the above pic) and all info can be reached quite quickly. Transponder, map, flight instruments, engine parameters. The reason for the Garmin 695 is that I find the Garmin maps a lot better and it means I can now enlarge my flying instruments (with the 3D Skyview behind it), "eliminating" the Dynon map from my primary screen. Good point though!

Originally Posted by BackPacker

What I find surprising is your choice for lighted switches. The picture is not entirely clear but it looks like your "avionics" switch emits an orange light when it's on. If you were to use lighted switches, that would need to be a green light, since orange is normally used for caution lights, and red for warnings. But since I can see that the avionics are on, on the avionics itself, why would I need a separate indicator light for that?

Green lights on the switches for nav light and landing light are a good idea. But are your lights all dimmable, or will they be so bright as to kill your night vision when flying at night? (Right now they are already too bright for the camera, and that's in daylight.)

Wasn´t entirely my choice I´m afraid, that is how she came from the factory. Look:



The lights are red, a bit of a weird color indeed……..but the switches we added later on are non-lit. I don´t pay too much attention to the few that have the small lights and the Master has its own big light to the left anyway.

Originally Posted by BackPacker

The push button next to your magneto switch, is that the starter? I would put some sort of guard over that, so that you can't bump into it by accident (with your knee when getting in, or with your kneeboard while seated).

Correct! A good suggestion too, as my knee tends to come come quite close!
That is now on the list to be purchased!

Originally Posted by BackPacker

What's the button underneath the prop switch?

The fuse for the Ivoprop controllable pitch. That one pops more than average according to my mechanic, so he wanted it to stand out.

Originally Posted by BackPacker

Did you deliberately put the "trim nose up" at the top of the trim switch? In aviation, switches forward or up are always to make the aircraft "go" (or go faster). In that respect, if you press the trim switch "up" it should make the aircraft go faster, so that should trim nose down.

Point taken……….however, that is how I had it in my old aircraft too!
Considering that my "vast" flying experience in the left seat only consistst of these 2 aircraft………it is kind of what I am used to!

Originally Posted by BackPacker

I assume you're going to label all your warning lights? And why do you have warning lights at the bottom of the panel? They should be as high up on the panel, in your primary field of vision (when looking out).

Are you talking about the Rotax turbo lights? I know them both and their meaning very well, the red & orange one. No need for labels.

Originally Posted by BackPacker

Why the order "master" (space) "landing light" "nav light" "avionics" "strobe". This suggests your strobe is on the avionics bus. I would do "master" (space) "strobe" "nav light" "landing light" (space) "avionics" and then the switches that are on the avionics bus. And I would put all avionics switches together, not separated by a row of fuses. (Come to think of it, I would not add separate switches for avionics anyway but just wire them into the avionics bus straight away (with a fuse added, obviously). After all, all avionics units have their own on/off switches so you can switch them off if necessary anyway. But normally they're left on, and the whole avionics package is simply switched on/off with the avionics master.)

Yes, again--> point taken.
Part of the kitting out was done by our club mechanic while I was working overseas so I´d be lying to you if I said that there´s an exact reason for every switch.
Again, I can only give the (poor) argument that I am now accustomed to this……..and that I have no issue with it, personally.
The avionics are divided by 1 main and 3 specific switches for all 3 devices……..yes. On the ground when you do certain checks it is handy, but I see what you mean--> it´s not really necessary.

Originally Posted by BackPacker

If I were spending a lot of money on my own aircraft, I would make all fuses proper, resettable and pullable circuit breakers. Not the "blow-once and then fumble around for five minutes trying to get a new one inserted with the proper rating"-type. Specifically, I think the flap CB needs to be resettable (just in case the flap motor overheats or something like that) and the trim CB needs to be pullable (to prevent trim runaway).

Pullable they are! I use it regularly to not drain the battery if I´m doing something on the ground. Yes if they blow I end up changing them in the air. As you can see in the above pic, that is how the aircraft came. With future upgrades, I guess your suggestion would be a good one.

Originally Posted by BackPacker

I'm not entirely familiar with the Rotax 914, but shouldn't you have some sort of CB to be able to cut the alternator loose of the system? For instance if your regulator fails and causes an overvoltage?

The aircraft I know that are 914 powered don´t have this installed, so I guess the answer would be no. Perhaps somebody else can elaborate?
I will ask today at the club……..

Originally Posted by Rod1

My experience of uncertified EFIS equipment is that it is very reliable provided it is correctly installed according to the manufacturer. People with avionics experience that “do it there way” tend to end up in a world of pain.

Rod1

I can imagine………..luckily I´m okay there.
My mechanic is well known for his LSA knowledge and gets consulted throughout the country! So far, no sweat!!

###Ultra Long Hauler###