Ditching

[Pittsextra]

Has anyone had to ditch their plane into the sea?

I'm currently discussing the merits of a complete liferaft and other safety kit with my wife for our trips overseas.

Just wanted to know others views on the subject.

[Pitts2112]

I think a better place to start would be to look up accident statistics where you'll get the global view rather than just a few hundred here on Pprune.

Air Accidents Investigation: Annual Safety Reports

[BackPacker]

There's an enormous amount of information on this at the Equipped To Survive website.

Remember it's not just the kit you're bringing along (or have on/around your body), but also the training you have had in handling it that makes the difference between living and dying.

A long while ago I thought that the ordeal was over after a successful ditching. But the statistics (from said website) show that in only 10% of ditching accidents, there are fatalities from the ditching itself. Typically because the plane is not landed under control. But once the initial ditching/egress phase is over, 50% of the people involved die from hypothermia. So once you're on the water the ordeal is just beginning.

I then did a maritime survival course which taught me a great deal about the practical aspects of surviving after the ditching. And there's a lot more to survival than just pulling on a piece of string so the liferaft inflates, after which you step aboard for a G&T.

At the end of the day, it's a risk/cost/reward thing. So far I have settled for a life vest, a drysuit (ex-dingy sailing type), a signal mirror and a rescue streamer. I'm still contemplating getting a PLB. All that stuff is carried on my body so I'm sure I can take it with me when getting out.

A liferaft sounds fantastic, and it is if you can deploy it properly and get in without difficulty. But there are a lot of drawbacks to it, and things that can go wrong. You really need to have had some serious training to use it properly.

[Pittsextra]

That's good colour thanks. With the drysuit do you actually fly in it? I can't really swim more than 10m and I too thought the cold would be the issue and thought without a liferaft you are going to be cold - so developed a view that you either do all or nothing.

I'll look at the websites and thankyou.

[trex450]

I have flown in both dingy dry suits and proper air crew ones. Try Survival 1 in Aberdeen for the made to measure suits, they have lots of pockets on them. Always wear the suit (you will not be able to put it on in the event of) and dress for the season, or more importantly the sea temperature underneath the suit. There are plenty of life jackets around from the basic pouch on your waist type but IMHO if you are serious about any prolonged over water flights then equip yourself with a life jacket that has a hood on it. If you can cover you head you increase your survival time considerably.
A cheaper option could be a basic life jacket and a wetsuit hood and gloves.
Get a PLB also then the helicopter has something to aim at and if you have any space or money left then buy a raft as well. If however your over water legs are likely to be no more than 10-20 minutes then this might be a bit over the top as it would be simpler to climb to 5000+ and minimize your time out of gliding distance from land.

[Droopystop]

The biggest problem is cold shock which increases the chance of drowning and generally its the drowning that gets you before the hypothermia. Definitely a good life jacket with a hood and designed such that it won't ride up in the water. I spend my working life over the water and don't venture out without a survival suit. Life raft would be good if it's tied down so that it won't kill you on impact, you manage to get it out once you are in the drink, it inflates and doesn't blow away and can finally manage to get in it. I think just having one without proper training offers a false sense of security.

[wiggy]

Well I haven't "ditched" a light aircraft but for other reasons I have some insight into the subject......

I spent some of my formative years spent in an environment where sea survival skills was regularly taught, practiced and sometimes had to be used in anger . I'm glad to see your not underestimating the sea around the UK because it can at best render you immobile and unable to function very quickly and at worse kill you very quickly if you're not prepared.

Personally, no matter how "infra-dig" it seems to you or your wife I really would second/third/forth all the previous good advice you've had to wear some sort of survival suit and a lifejacket, and carry on it/in it, some sort of personal locator beacon. A life raft is a "nice to have", but as has been said you may not have time to get it out of the aircraft if you ditch, and if even you do you may not be able to board it, so invest in one only after you've got survival suits/lifejackets/PLBs.

Also be aware in a ditching (or similar) once you've hit the water and stopped all you've done is swopped one problem, surviving the landing, for another equally serious one, surviving the water - any training you can get will markedly increase your chances of survival............

Edited to add: Extra information here:Hypothermia Prevention: Survial in Cold Water | Minnesota Sea Grant

It's worth bearing in mind for much of the year the sea temperature around the UK is below 10 celsius.

[BackPacker]

With the drysuit do you actually fly in it? I can't really swim more than 10m and I too thought the cold would be the issue and thought without a liferaft you are going to be cold - so developed a view that you either do all or nothing.

Yes, you are supposed to wear the drysuit while flying. In fact, it's a good idea to actually have it fully zipped up. Most, if not all, are made from Goretex or something similar so it's not too bad.

The first time I tried my drysuit on, it took me about twenty minutes to put on, as there's a certain knack to getting your head through the seal. And this was in a comfy living room, with help. In a GA aircraft, while dealing with an emergency, there is no way I'd be able to put it on in time. And a partly-on, or not zipped up drysuit is actually more dangerous than no drysuit at all: It doesn't do anything for insulation but greatly restricts your movement (and thus, for instance, your ability to enter a life raft) because it fills with water.

You are right that the cold is the major issue here. So underneath the dry suit you have to wear a few layers of clothing that provide insulation. Divers use special "bear suits" which are coveralls made of fleece or something similar, but for aviation emergency use you can probably get by with normal pants (jeans possibly), a t-shirt and a sweater or something like that. The main issue is that you stay dry, because air is a much better insulator than water.

As far as life rafts are concerned, remember that a life raft without a dry suit is only partly solving the hypothermia problem. You will very likely get wet before you can get into the life raft. And in the very lucky circumstance that you can step off the wing straight into the life raft, you'll probably find the life raft floor is wet from the deployment or spray. So you will have to expect to get wet in any case. Without a drysuit, that means your insulation is now gone.

Best solution is obviously a dry suit plus a life raft. Plus a life jacket in case you do get into the water. But if you have a limited budget and no training in working with life rafts (deploying them properly, turning them over if inverted, getting on board, deploying the canopy & water ballast, ...), I'd say the dry suit plus a life jacket, but minus the life raft, is probably the next best solution.

Not being able to swim 10m is not a problem at all, by the way. Where would you swim to anyway? The only thing that would conceivably be within easy swim distance of your ditched aircraft would be the life raft. And if you deploy it properly, then it's either tethered to the aircraft, or to you. So you can simply pull it towards you, or get into the water and pull yourself towards it. Other than that, conserve your energy and don't swim anywhere.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by BackPacker

You are right that the cold is the major issue here. So underneath the dry suit you have to wear a few layers of clothing that provide insulation. Divers use special "bear suits" which are coveralls made of fleece or something similar, but for aviation emergency use you can probably get by with normal pants (jeans possibly), a t-shirt and a sweater or something like that. The main issue is that you stay dry, because air is a much better insulator than water.

Just a bit more context. I was doing rescue duty at our sailing lake one winter day and decided to 'check out' my dry suit. We had to break ice up around the docks and slipways so the surface water temperature was likely just above 0. I was wearing normal jeans, a warm shirt and medium weight fleece, and winter weight wool socks under the dry suit and insulated sailing gloves on the hands.

I jumped in (but did not put my head underwater) and paddled around for about 15 minutes. My hands where quite cold, but still usable. My neck started to hurt from cold at the point just above the neck seal but still in and out of the water. The rest of me remained fine.

So on a cool day, you probably would be wearing about the right amount of clothing. The problem is on a hot April day when the cockpit is very warm but the water is bloody cold.

[Droopystop]

Just for perspective a North Sea helicopter pilot wears a goretex survival suit, fully zipped up and air expelled (we are discouraged from using the zip up the front style) with varying degrees of under garments. Wooly bear suits are the norm at this time of year. Over that we wear a RFD Beaufort Mk44 lifejacket with spray hood, day-night flare and PLB. One employer supplies spare air as well to aid escape. We fly aircraft fitted with emergency floats and ELTs and most modern aircraft are fitted with external life rafts. Now of course that is over kill for a quick trip over the narrow bit of the Channel on a nice day and you will have to decide on what level of investment is appropriate for the flying you do. But it shows what level of thought and experience that has gone into making a ditching as survivable as possible.

[peterh337]

These debates pop up regularly.

At one end you get the people who wear a drysuit when flying 5 mins over water.

At the other end you get ones like me who take the view that a raft is the realistic civilised solution which is acceptable to "normal" passengers, and you brief them on how to use it, and the priority will be to make a ditching after which one can get out.

I carry a Survival Products raft, the 4-man non TSO version with a canopy. I think Harry M sells them. SEMS at Basildon can overhaul it.

[Pittsextra]

Firstly thank you for the effort and time taken with replies it's very kind.

I guess the channel is the usual water crossing but we do also cross the Irish sea and the latest conversation comes following thoughts of flying to Nordic countries.

Anyone doing a course on sea survival in UK?

[Rod1]

I was involved in some sea survival research for Plymouth University. One of the tests was to dump teams of 1st year undergrads into open water holding on to a fully inflated raft and see if they could get in. All the ones who had a member with previous training did, all the ones with no training failed. Now this is quite an optimistic result as the students were expecting the exercise, had all been briefed and were only in light clothing, did not have to get out of an aircraft and inflate the dingy. It was summer and the sea state was good.

At my strip we have an ex RAF guy who was involved in rescuing ditched pilots over many years and who has watched from above as several crews fail to get out of their aircraft at all, let alone get out with a 25kg lump. His take is that getting out of an aircraft with a dingy is very hard, and that getting in a 4 man dingy in average open water conditions would be impossible for Mr Average. He recommends an immersion suite and a 1 man dingy each. His theory is they are light and small to get out of the aircraft and very easy to get into. Each person needs their own PLB.

I did a lot of open water survival stuff many years ago and try very hard to avoid flying out of range of land. If you take the short crossing and fly high you will only be out of range of land for a very short time. In my aircraft this is typically 90 sec. You are also over the busiest shipping lane in the world and the chances of a warship or a suitable boat being in gliding range is quite good. The risk for longer crossings, single engine, is mush higher.

Rod1

[stickandrudderman]

A lot of good advice from people more knowledgable than me here.
I have done a survival at sea course and I can concur that getting into a liferaft if you don't know how is not at all easy.
One valuable snippet of information:
If you do have to ditch over a busy waterway, try to ditch near a small motor boat. They are the most manouverable and you stand a good chance of actually making it on board once they get alongside.
Yachts and large commercial vessels are virtually impossible to get into from the sea unless they have a special facility for such.

[BackPacker]

Over that we wear a RFD Beaufort Mk44 lifejacket with spray hood, day-night flare and PLB.

Droopystop, out of curiosity, which PLB are you using?

And do you have anything for final localization, such as a signal mirror, smoke canister, dye marker or Rescue streamer?

[Droopystop]

Backpacker,

I think it is a SARBE 6 although we are in the process of getting new ones, but I have no idea which they will be. We also have a day night flare, smoke on one end, red flare on the other.

Pittsextra,

Google Offshore Survival Training and/or RYA Survival training (Royal Yachting Association). The later would probably be better as it is more orientated (I believe) to smaller, leisure users. Unless of course you want to carry a 14 man liferaft!

[abgd]

It might seem a funny question (we discussed something similar on PPRUNE once before) but are there any aircraft that float? One might imagine that some of the foam/composite types should be reasonably buoyant though I'm guessing the CoG would tend to tip them forward.

[neilgeddes]

but are there any aircraft that float?

seaplanes

[Rod1]

There is a DR400/180 with long range tanks which ran out of fuel and ditched in a Norwegian fiord. They jettisoned the canopy then realised she was floating so sat on the back with feet dangling in the water. A fishing boat came by and the two climbed aboard having only got their feet wet. The fishing boat put a rope round the prop and towed it to a nearby harbour and it was dragged out after 2 hours and eventually flew again. I know all this because I almost purchased it 20 year later and the story came out when we looked at the logs etc.

Rod1

[Maoraigh1]

The Lossie rescue helicopter did a training exercise within sight of my home a few years ago. The sea was choppy. I watched an unfortunate guy in a survival suit struggle to get into a liferaft, then capsize. Then get in again. Eventually he stayed in, and was picked up by the winchman. Then, as he was being winched up, the two guys were lowered, and, I assume, the winchman dropped into the sea. A few swimstrokes and he was at the raft, in first attempt, and he stayed in no problem.