Ditching
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When I was in the RAF I was a lifeguard and used to teach kids and adults how to swim, so was very fit, very good swimmer and used to being in the water etc. We put an aircrew dinghy in the pool one day and I had trouble getting into it, I was surprised by the effort it took to get in, bale out and do up the fastener. That was in a swimming pool so I have to say that carrying a life raft without proper training is just for comfort unless you have had proper training in a pool or preferably the sea with the life raft you carry onboard your a/c.
Immersion suits would be a far better bet than carrying a liferaft.
Immersion suits would be a far better bet than carrying a liferaft.
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The technique is not that hard but (hard to describe without a sketch etc) you won't discover it by accident.
It is harder as the liferaft is smaller.
I've tried it in a pool and I bet it's harder in a decent swell...
The idea with a raft is to get into it straight from the aircraft. You absolutely must not chuck it into the water and hope to climb into it. One must brief passengers accordingly.
It is harder as the liferaft is smaller.
I've tried it in a pool and I bet it's harder in a decent swell...
The idea with a raft is to get into it straight from the aircraft. You absolutely must not chuck it into the water and hope to climb into it. One must brief passengers accordingly.
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Some resources that may be useful
CAA Safety sense leaflet on ditching which has a lot of good advice and information in it: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_09webSSL21.pdf
GASCo sometimes runs ditching courses. I went on one at the RNLI College. I found it a big eye opener on this issue. As has been said in other posts in this thread the big problem isn’t getting down safely onto the water but staying alive once floating about in it.
GASCo - GASCo Goes to Sea
There’s nothing quite like struggling to get into a life raft while cold and soaking wet to realise just how tricky it can be. A raft can throw in a few tricks in its own such as turning upside down and trapping you under it.
SEMS led the pool work I took part in. They run training courses and can hire out or sell equipment: SEMS Aerosafe - Survival Equipment for light aircraft
CAA Safety sense leaflet on ditching which has a lot of good advice and information in it: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_09webSSL21.pdf
GASCo sometimes runs ditching courses. I went on one at the RNLI College. I found it a big eye opener on this issue. As has been said in other posts in this thread the big problem isn’t getting down safely onto the water but staying alive once floating about in it.
GASCo - GASCo Goes to Sea
There’s nothing quite like struggling to get into a life raft while cold and soaking wet to realise just how tricky it can be. A raft can throw in a few tricks in its own such as turning upside down and trapping you under it.
SEMS led the pool work I took part in. They run training courses and can hire out or sell equipment: SEMS Aerosafe - Survival Equipment for light aircraft
We have the full Nomex/GoreTex suits, and I wear them when the crossing is longer than about 30 minutes. I figure that the actual 'out of glide to land' time is pretty short.
Wear your life jacket, and have your beacon on your person whatever - that way if you get out of the plane you'll have the minimum with you. Additionally getting the raft out is nice, but less easy.
As far as floating planes goes, my theory is that the less fuel you have, the longer you'll float (thanks to the fuel tanks being full of air). Of course, you need to get the machine down relatively intact.
Taking the S out of SAR is important as well (radio calls and position transmitting beacons etc.).
Fly safe, Sam.
PS lost a colleague a long time ago who dived back into a ditched aircraft to try and rescue someone, and didn't come back up - so be careful if you find yourself in a similar situation.
Wear your life jacket, and have your beacon on your person whatever - that way if you get out of the plane you'll have the minimum with you. Additionally getting the raft out is nice, but less easy.
As far as floating planes goes, my theory is that the less fuel you have, the longer you'll float (thanks to the fuel tanks being full of air). Of course, you need to get the machine down relatively intact.
Taking the S out of SAR is important as well (radio calls and position transmitting beacons etc.).
Fly safe, Sam.
PS lost a colleague a long time ago who dived back into a ditched aircraft to try and rescue someone, and didn't come back up - so be careful if you find yourself in a similar situation.
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Ditching & Sea Survival Seminar - 29th March 2012
GASCo will be holding a third 'Ditching and Sea Survival' Seminar at the Lifeboat College, Poole on 29th March 2012.
Contact Penny Gould at the GASCo Office on 01634 200203 or e-mail [email protected].
GASCo - Ditching & Sea Survival Seminar - 29th March 2012
Contact Penny Gould at the GASCo Office on 01634 200203 or e-mail [email protected].
GASCo - Ditching & Sea Survival Seminar - 29th March 2012
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So this was an interesting read if you were thinking of ditching in a Pitts. Straight on its back.
Lessons Learned [Archive] - StudentPilot.com Message Board
Lessons Learned [Archive] - StudentPilot.com Message Board
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Wearing a drysuit will give you just that bit more confidence over water. I used to have a checklist handy which said things like, Headsets off. Head cover on, Gloves on, door cracked open, all that sort of stuff and used to go through this with accompanying wife. Be very aware (others will give you details) of what your aircraft will do when it hits the water, for instance there is a good chance that it will nose in and the cockpit will go under the water then bob back etc. I don't fly nowadays but always made a point of being super cautious over any stretch of water. Don't listen to the ones who say that the chances of anything happening are very slim, they are correct - very few small aircraft ditch however that's a lot different than actually being there in mid channel with your heart in your mouth.
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I understand that every bit of weight is precious in an aircraft however I am somewhat surprised that no one has put forward realistic solutions to the problems of ditching and remaining afloat.
For an aircraft with a weight of about 1200lbs it takes about 15lbs of polystyrene foam. (I'll expalin hpow I know in a sec.) By choice perhaps polystyrene is not what one would choose, perhaps not the best in a fire and that is the other major danger, however I am sure if one was to pay a little more one could find something even less dense and perhaps less flammable.
How about filling non occupied space with ping pong balls? Maybe inflatable attachable buoyancy.
About the time I was building jemima, a Searey amphibian, our group lost several aircraft to landing in water with wheels down and while most of them were recovered they all sank far enough to douse the instruments and the engine. Most also suffered a collapsing foredeck. I filled Jemima with 15lbs of polystyrene using it also to reinforce the nose and deck. If I wreck her and survive the impact I should be able to sit on top!
Incidentally but connected:
I saw an demonstration on utube of an amphibian landing on water wheels down which made me realise something interesting. The aircraft was a tricycle type and after the main wheels hit the nose splashed before the aircraft was tipped tail up. If you watch film of wheels down accidents from taildraggers, when the wheels dig in the nose goes down so the tail is almost over the nose before the nose builds resistance in the water so the forwards momentum easily drives the tail over. Tricycle gear aircraft are better for ditching.
For an aircraft with a weight of about 1200lbs it takes about 15lbs of polystyrene foam. (I'll expalin hpow I know in a sec.) By choice perhaps polystyrene is not what one would choose, perhaps not the best in a fire and that is the other major danger, however I am sure if one was to pay a little more one could find something even less dense and perhaps less flammable.
How about filling non occupied space with ping pong balls? Maybe inflatable attachable buoyancy.
About the time I was building jemima, a Searey amphibian, our group lost several aircraft to landing in water with wheels down and while most of them were recovered they all sank far enough to douse the instruments and the engine. Most also suffered a collapsing foredeck. I filled Jemima with 15lbs of polystyrene using it also to reinforce the nose and deck. If I wreck her and survive the impact I should be able to sit on top!
Incidentally but connected:
I saw an demonstration on utube of an amphibian landing on water wheels down which made me realise something interesting. The aircraft was a tricycle type and after the main wheels hit the nose splashed before the aircraft was tipped tail up. If you watch film of wheels down accidents from taildraggers, when the wheels dig in the nose goes down so the tail is almost over the nose before the nose builds resistance in the water so the forwards momentum easily drives the tail over. Tricycle gear aircraft are better for ditching.
A few points from my experience doing several survival course in the RAF, including the instructor's course.
The priorities in a survival situation are: Protection - Location - Water - Food, in that order.
Protection:
The coldest water around the UK can get down to 3 degrees, and at that temperature you have about 45 seconds to get into your liferaft before the cold renders the feat impossible for the average person. After that, it's curtains. And this is assuming you don't get incapacitated by cold shock. This is why the RAF insists on the wearing of immersion suits when the sea temperature gets below 10 degrees and the Navy 15. I once did a sea survial exercise in the English channel where we had to spend 10 hours in a liferaft. I was wearing an immersion suit and three layers underneath. Despite being February, the biggest danger was overheating - I was too well insulated. Whereas, I got close to hypothermia doing another sea survival exercise off the Norfolk coast in August wearing nothing but a flying suit.
Wear your immersion suit/drysuit. You are extremely unlikely to have the opportunity to get into it after the ditching. The same goes for your bouyancy device. If you don't have a liferaft, a bouyancy device with a hood is going to increase your survival time.
Getting into a liferaft is a struggle. Practice in a warm swimming pool first. Make sure the liferaft has a cover and a boarding step - and a way of getting any water out when you're all in.
Location: (which means being found and not living in Surrey!) I'm often suprised that pilots don't have a good idea about how important this is. Getting picked up quickly is the key to survival and just having a hand held VHF isn't going to be of much use - especially if it's got wet. The PLBs on the market are good, but there are some really excellent EPIRBS (Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons) available, mostly designed for yachting use. Some have GPS built in and can transmit recognition data which you will have registered with the coastguard when you buy them. They are good value and will pretty much ensure you will be found - quite quickly. Look at the boat chandler's webites for the best deals.
Water: Not too important. You hope to be rescued in a matter of hours.
Food: You can survive for more than a couple of weeks without food, so don't bother.
I still do survival lectures for yacht people. I like to bring my mate along to give the benefit of his experience of ditching a light twin in the Pacific on a ferry flight. He and his co-pilot survived because they were prepared. Even to the extent that they had a second liferaft - which came in useful when the tailplane of the sinking aircraft sliced the inflated first raft in two as it slipped below the waves! They also had a 406MHz beacon - which meant they were found very quickly - although the pickup took about 24 hours as they were several hundred miles from Hawaii. Incidently, this was the first recorded rescue using a 406MHz device. He also likes to point out that the touchdown was very violent - he broke his nose when his head struck the glareshield.
The priorities in a survival situation are: Protection - Location - Water - Food, in that order.
Protection:
The coldest water around the UK can get down to 3 degrees, and at that temperature you have about 45 seconds to get into your liferaft before the cold renders the feat impossible for the average person. After that, it's curtains. And this is assuming you don't get incapacitated by cold shock. This is why the RAF insists on the wearing of immersion suits when the sea temperature gets below 10 degrees and the Navy 15. I once did a sea survial exercise in the English channel where we had to spend 10 hours in a liferaft. I was wearing an immersion suit and three layers underneath. Despite being February, the biggest danger was overheating - I was too well insulated. Whereas, I got close to hypothermia doing another sea survival exercise off the Norfolk coast in August wearing nothing but a flying suit.
Wear your immersion suit/drysuit. You are extremely unlikely to have the opportunity to get into it after the ditching. The same goes for your bouyancy device. If you don't have a liferaft, a bouyancy device with a hood is going to increase your survival time.
Getting into a liferaft is a struggle. Practice in a warm swimming pool first. Make sure the liferaft has a cover and a boarding step - and a way of getting any water out when you're all in.
Location: (which means being found and not living in Surrey!) I'm often suprised that pilots don't have a good idea about how important this is. Getting picked up quickly is the key to survival and just having a hand held VHF isn't going to be of much use - especially if it's got wet. The PLBs on the market are good, but there are some really excellent EPIRBS (Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons) available, mostly designed for yachting use. Some have GPS built in and can transmit recognition data which you will have registered with the coastguard when you buy them. They are good value and will pretty much ensure you will be found - quite quickly. Look at the boat chandler's webites for the best deals.
Water: Not too important. You hope to be rescued in a matter of hours.
Food: You can survive for more than a couple of weeks without food, so don't bother.
I still do survival lectures for yacht people. I like to bring my mate along to give the benefit of his experience of ditching a light twin in the Pacific on a ferry flight. He and his co-pilot survived because they were prepared. Even to the extent that they had a second liferaft - which came in useful when the tailplane of the sinking aircraft sliced the inflated first raft in two as it slipped below the waves! They also had a 406MHz beacon - which meant they were found very quickly - although the pickup took about 24 hours as they were several hundred miles from Hawaii. Incidently, this was the first recorded rescue using a 406MHz device. He also likes to point out that the touchdown was very violent - he broke his nose when his head struck the glareshield.
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It might seem a funny question (we discussed something similar on PPRUNE once before) but are there any aircraft that float? One might imagine that some of the foam/composite types should be reasonably buoyant though I'm guessing the CoG would tend to tip them forward.
They're usually able to be dragged near to the shore before they submerge completely, making recovery easier. That won't make repairs that much cheaper, though.
Cheers,
DG800
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I often wondered this and sorry for a bit of thread creep, many years ago Tomorrows World ( remember that) showed a triangular liferaft rather like a toblerone box in shape, the advantages were you entered from the end so it wouldn't tip over, and the triangular shape meant if it did tip, the sides became the floor etc... if that makes sense, was it ever developed?
They also did Chaff flares which made a lot of sense as you might not see the flare but the chaff would appear on a ship or coastguards radar.
They also did Chaff flares which made a lot of sense as you might not see the flare but the chaff would appear on a ship or coastguards radar.
Flotation suits - Flotation Suits - Baltic Polar & Nova Floataion Suit
Baltic Floatation Suits have the ability to protect against the first shock of entering cold water. It then traps water inside the suit and the same principle as a wet suit applies with the body heating the trapped water.
All Baltic floatation suits have three important features for persons in rugged marine environments
1. 100% waterproof
2. The same buoyant properties as a standard buoyancy aid.
3. Protection against the first cold shock
Baltic floatation suits are CE marked and tested and approved to EN393 and ISO 1527-1
One of the criteria is that five persons, each wearing a floatation suit, are immersed in water at 15°C for two hours. During that time they must not lose more than 2°C core temperature. The test subjects for Baltic lost only 0.8°C
I found these online recently and wondered whether they might prove a suitable alternative for an immersion suit ?
It strikes me that a flotation suit has a number of advantages over an immersion suit. They incorporate a hood and apparently negate the need for a separate life jacket. They look more comfortable and I assume they won't restrict movement as much as an immersion suit does. They cost less than an immersion suit.
On the downside, as they appear to work on the wet suit principle the added weight from the trapped water could make it harder to exit an aircraft and climb into a liferaft.
Regards, jez
Baltic Floatation Suits have the ability to protect against the first shock of entering cold water. It then traps water inside the suit and the same principle as a wet suit applies with the body heating the trapped water.
All Baltic floatation suits have three important features for persons in rugged marine environments
1. 100% waterproof
2. The same buoyant properties as a standard buoyancy aid.
3. Protection against the first cold shock
Baltic floatation suits are CE marked and tested and approved to EN393 and ISO 1527-1
One of the criteria is that five persons, each wearing a floatation suit, are immersed in water at 15°C for two hours. During that time they must not lose more than 2°C core temperature. The test subjects for Baltic lost only 0.8°C
It strikes me that a flotation suit has a number of advantages over an immersion suit. They incorporate a hood and apparently negate the need for a separate life jacket. They look more comfortable and I assume they won't restrict movement as much as an immersion suit does. They cost less than an immersion suit.
On the downside, as they appear to work on the wet suit principle the added weight from the trapped water could make it harder to exit an aircraft and climb into a liferaft.
Regards, jez
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apparently negate the need for a separate life jacket.
A life jacket, when inflated, has most of the buoyancy on your chest, and as a collar around your neck. So if you become unconscious, your head is kept out of the water and you don't drown from water ingestion. This is one of the most important design criteria to get CE approval as a "life jacket".
If the buoyancy is spread around your whole body, you may well end up in a stable position with your face in the water.
They cost less than an immersion suit.
(Actually I hope never to end up in that situation, but you get my point...)
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Flotation Suits...we-e-eellll... the thing is, if you don't get wet your body heat won't get washed away. Anything that gets wet will have to be a very good fit to trap that precious heat. Wetsuits work by keeping a thin water layer close to the skin that warms up and stays there. If the flotation suit does anything like that it will be stiff, bulky and uncomfortable to wear inside the cocklit. Does anyone have experience with this?
I'd go for a drysuit and dressing apropriately underneath, in layered clothing with thermal underwear, and wearing a lifejacket on top. The suit does the job of keeping the cold water from touching you, the clothing and the air trapped in the clothing keeps you insulated, and the lifejacket keeps you afloat. I had a separate hood (a wetsuit diving hood) and neoprene (surfing) socks. These are still in the aircraft on the bottom of the Atlantic together with the raft we couldn't get out, I did not have the time to put them on! My feet were cold but the suits changed what could have been a death scenario into a case of mild hypothermia. Given a choice between a drysuit and a raft I'm not sure to get out or even be able to climb into, I'd take the suit any day. When you're in tropical shark-infested waters the choice may be different...
I'd go for a drysuit and dressing apropriately underneath, in layered clothing with thermal underwear, and wearing a lifejacket on top. The suit does the job of keeping the cold water from touching you, the clothing and the air trapped in the clothing keeps you insulated, and the lifejacket keeps you afloat. I had a separate hood (a wetsuit diving hood) and neoprene (surfing) socks. These are still in the aircraft on the bottom of the Atlantic together with the raft we couldn't get out, I did not have the time to put them on! My feet were cold but the suits changed what could have been a death scenario into a case of mild hypothermia. Given a choice between a drysuit and a raft I'm not sure to get out or even be able to climb into, I'd take the suit any day. When you're in tropical shark-infested waters the choice may be different...
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Do PA28s float?
Always wondered if a PA28 would float? I always presumed I'd come to rest, get out of the aircraft, inflate the raft and jump in, on a floating platform.
Do they float?
Do they float?
I would not count on that. For starters, I can't find that claim anywhere on their website, and that doesn't surprise me.
2. The same buoyant properties as a standard buoyancy aid.
I thought immersion suits started at the £400 mark. Thanks for the encouraging news.
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Getting into a liferaft is a struggle. Practice in a warm swimming pool first. Make sure the liferaft has a cover and a boarding step - and a way of getting any water out when you're all in.
They said NO because the gas comes out of the cylinder very cold and makes the rubber brittle. When they test inflate the rafts they use room temperature air.
Disagreeing with a suggestion to wear a drysuit is a bit like laughing at Bob Geldof when he says that today we will abolish poverty, but I still don't advocate the wearing of one because it makes an already rather antisocial activity even more antisocial.