ppr do you do it?
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PPR is just one of those slightly irritating factors in flying that simply have to be endured, certainly in the UK. Irritating not least for the inconsistency of expected method of obtaining "PPR": to one airfield it means by phone before departure, to another it's ok by radio inbound, to a few it's by e-mail or in writing. But basically it's their facility, so their rules.
PPR'ing can still catch you out; on two occasions when visiting fly-ins at the same airfield I rang for PPR before departure, specifically confirming that fuel would be available. On both occasions they had no fuel when I arrived! In all fairness though, after just a little 'encouragement', they did jump through hoops to sort me out with sufficient fuel to get me safely home.
PPR'ing can still catch you out; on two occasions when visiting fly-ins at the same airfield I rang for PPR before departure, specifically confirming that fuel would be available. On both occasions they had no fuel when I arrived! In all fairness though, after just a little 'encouragement', they did jump through hoops to sort me out with sufficient fuel to get me safely home.
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In the European context, PNR for Customs is much bigger than PPR for the actual airport.
Any pilot who goes places for real needs to contact the airport beforehand - unless as I said the flight is to a known H24 or similar airport where you can definitely just turn up (H24 ones usually look at the incoming flight plans to see who is coming and advise Customs etc accordingly; an amazing intellectual feat which the smaller airports have not got their heads around yet).
Any pilot who goes places for real needs to contact the airport beforehand - unless as I said the flight is to a known H24 or similar airport where you can definitely just turn up (H24 ones usually look at the incoming flight plans to see who is coming and advise Customs etc accordingly; an amazing intellectual feat which the smaller airports have not got their heads around yet).
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I can never see any reason not to call. It costs me hardly anything, takes me hardly any time, I might learn something to my advantage and every tower has always been very appreciative that I have taken the time to be polite.
If GA is aiming to be some kind of semi-real transportation there must be only necessary minimum of limitations or conditions to use an airport. PPR is one of less useful I think. One should be able to get all the infos reading NOTAMs and the website of the airport, check the weather, kick the prop and fly.
Using some farmers field is something different of course.
Miroc
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I fly from a well-established farm strip.
One of the other co-owners (actually he was getting his check out having only recently joined the group) encountered another aircraft landing in the opposite direction. He had made the usual blind calls on the airfield frequency with no response received.
No sweat, he touched and went, taking off over the other aircraft (good thing they didn't both make the same decision...)
He did another circuit, only to find himself in the same situation AGAIN.
This time he saw the other aircraft before landing and went round.
It then happened a THIRD time.
On the fourth attempt he landed. The three other aircraft were visitors who had failed to get PPR. If they had done so they would have known that the airfield frequency changed over 2 years ago.
Probably wise to get PPR, on the whole.
One of the other co-owners (actually he was getting his check out having only recently joined the group) encountered another aircraft landing in the opposite direction. He had made the usual blind calls on the airfield frequency with no response received.
No sweat, he touched and went, taking off over the other aircraft (good thing they didn't both make the same decision...)
He did another circuit, only to find himself in the same situation AGAIN.
This time he saw the other aircraft before landing and went round.
It then happened a THIRD time.
On the fourth attempt he landed. The three other aircraft were visitors who had failed to get PPR. If they had done so they would have known that the airfield frequency changed over 2 years ago.
Probably wise to get PPR, on the whole.
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Bad reasons for a PPR are
- airport operator wants to "brief" you on procedures (Put them in the AIP or on your website, you cretin !)
- airport operator wants to "brief" you on procedures (Put them in the AIP or on your website, you cretin !)
The answer is sometimes along the lines of "that's fine, see you later, the PPR is so that we can brief the people who can't be arsed to read any of those".
That would be in the NOTAMS for the aerodrome, right ?
https://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv..._AD-2.LFLP.pdf
See any problem with hard taxiway B on page 3? No? How about the fact that it doesn't exist? For added fun, the turn off lights on 04 at B last time I went there were still lit. No NOTAM. Fun in a jet.
Avoid imitations
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The idea of PPR is a complete cluster**** in that context. If its a 'requirement' of the 'system', a reasonable response might be to say change now, get GA organized in some reasonable fashion, or continue to die. Even the Italian microlighters flying from farm fields do a whole lot better than what's described in this thread.
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I have to agree with Silvaire. It's one of the most annoying jobsworth things in the UK. I can think of no better way to drive people away. Last time I was chided by snotty A/G at Goodwood for not having it even though it's not even required, only recommended! It's like they get mad at you for not giving them a 5hr heads up from their tea drinking feast and actually have to work. It's most unwelcoming.
It's all fine if the entire GA scene consists of bacon sarnie flying sunday trippers going from A to B only, but if you want to be professional, be accessible and cater to all then this abomination has to go. Can you imagine if I asked my clients to give me a yearly breakdown of how many times they will hire me and during which exact dates? It'd be out of the business within 3 seconds if I demanded that.
The plane is the customer, it's not the other way around. Now, for a private field this is obviously different - then it is what it is and I accept that. But for Bournemouth? You have to be kidding.
It's all fine if the entire GA scene consists of bacon sarnie flying sunday trippers going from A to B only, but if you want to be professional, be accessible and cater to all then this abomination has to go. Can you imagine if I asked my clients to give me a yearly breakdown of how many times they will hire me and during which exact dates? It'd be out of the business within 3 seconds if I demanded that.
The plane is the customer, it's not the other way around. Now, for a private field this is obviously different - then it is what it is and I accept that. But for Bournemouth? You have to be kidding.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 26th Jan 2012 at 01:24.
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I did PPR to a field a while ago and set off. I turned back because of foul unforecast weather. I thought I would be a good airman and give them a bell when I landed so that they didn't panic.
'Hi this is G-XXXX, due in at 1400, afraid I had to RTB so I thought I'd call you.'
'Weren't even expecting you.'
System works a treat then.
Silvaire don't even try to begin comparing FAA land with CAA land, a lot of places and people here are in a 1930's timewarp.
'Hi this is G-XXXX, due in at 1400, afraid I had to RTB so I thought I'd call you.'
'Weren't even expecting you.'
System works a treat then.
Silvaire don't even try to begin comparing FAA land with CAA land, a lot of places and people here are in a 1930's timewarp.
Avoid imitations
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Silvaire, aah, thanks. It was the "continue to die" quote that I didn't quite understand. You mean GA as a whole, not the pilots!
Yes, some folk in charge of some UK airfields really don't seem to understand the meaning of "customer service".
As in: "We agree to pay you to use the airfield for the purpose it was licensed for. Your part of the contract is that you should provide the service we pay you for, at a reasonable cost. We don't expect you to treat us as if you are doing us a favour. Thankyou".
However, not the same as the need to PPR.
Yes, some folk in charge of some UK airfields really don't seem to understand the meaning of "customer service".
As in: "We agree to pay you to use the airfield for the purpose it was licensed for. Your part of the contract is that you should provide the service we pay you for, at a reasonable cost. We don't expect you to treat us as if you are doing us a favour. Thankyou".
However, not the same as the need to PPR.
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I can't believe people have such an issue phoning for PPR. It takes about 2 minutes and most of the time its at strips where there's no weather info etc available. I quite often change my plans after phoning because of local weather, poor runway conditions etc plus I get advice about the circuit based on their local knowledge ( not every airfield is in the AIP or has a website...)
I always call if for some reason I'm not going to make it after all just to let them know. Most of the time I get the response "Thanks, hardly anyone ever does that".
I always call if for some reason I'm not going to make it after all just to let them know. Most of the time I get the response "Thanks, hardly anyone ever does that".
It would be good to put a reason for the PPR in the AIP or on the aerodrome website if it applies.
Most airfields are private property, and in most parts of the world there is no absolute right to enter private property without permission. In the UK the owner of an airfield has the right to impose PPR as a condition without having to justify it. It's their airfield, and if you don't like it then you don't have to visit.
Yes, it takes a few minutes to phone, and they don't always answer, and I might even change my mind in the air. There can be reasons why I might turn up and call on the radio, even where it says PPR by phone. (And I take the risk that they might turn me away.)
However, I'm genuinely puzzled by the objection on principle raised by some people. I mean: do you expect an unrestricted right of access to any private property? Does being a pilot give you some sort of droit du seigneur over airfields (and the local virgins)?
I've noticed quite a few PPLs seem to have a significant mental block about carefully doing checks in their aircraft.
I wonder if there's a correlation between those who don't do checks, and those who object to phoning for PPR?
G
I wonder if there's a correlation between those who don't do checks, and those who object to phoning for PPR?
G
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I've noticed quite a few PPLs seem to have a significant mental block about carefully doing checks in their aircraft.
I wonder if there's a correlation between those who don't do checks, and those who object to phoning for PPR?
G
I wonder if there's a correlation between those who don't do checks, and those who object to phoning for PPR?
G
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FREDA - How about don't start an airfield if you don't want people to land on it?
This happened not long ago in a pub:
Me: I'd Like two pints of Guinness please.
Pub: 7 quid.
Me: Can I pay with card?
Pub: Minimum of 10 pounds.
Me: OK, we're going to drink more than these, can I start a tab? *hands over card*
Pub: No, we don't start tabs.
Me: ?
Pub: You have to buy a third pint if you want to pay with card.
All very insignificant, but ultimately after watching a pint turn stale on the bar that we'd have been forced to buy to satisfy a nonsensical publicans whim, we moved onto a pub where they would start a tab. Sure, it's his pub and he can do what he wants. But who in their right mind would want to?
Same here. I'm in the air. I change my plans on a whim, or my destination's weather has deteriorated or I had developed a technical fault. I call up field and they say "we only accept PPR by phone" and refuse landing. I go somewhere else where they don't have silly rules, half hoping the engine will quit and declare an emergency just to inconvenience them.
Some people are just hell bent on driving themselves out of business. What's it to me? Well, I've been in business for myself since I was 19 and it just drives me crazy that bad customer service not only is so prevalent, but even encouraged by many. If you're in the business of running an airfield, collecting landing fee's and providing the best support for your tenants on the field, be it a cafe or a maintenance facility, don't you owe it to them and your customers to be accessible and welcoming?
Once again, I'm not talking about small private airfield, 28-day rules etc - that's a different thing. But licensed and incorporated airfields in the business of airfielding. I just don't get it. Even if you lose only one customer because of it, that's one customer. He will tell all and sundry that this field is a PITA.
Just help me understand why this is good practice?
This happened not long ago in a pub:
Me: I'd Like two pints of Guinness please.
Pub: 7 quid.
Me: Can I pay with card?
Pub: Minimum of 10 pounds.
Me: OK, we're going to drink more than these, can I start a tab? *hands over card*
Pub: No, we don't start tabs.
Me: ?
Pub: You have to buy a third pint if you want to pay with card.
All very insignificant, but ultimately after watching a pint turn stale on the bar that we'd have been forced to buy to satisfy a nonsensical publicans whim, we moved onto a pub where they would start a tab. Sure, it's his pub and he can do what he wants. But who in their right mind would want to?
Same here. I'm in the air. I change my plans on a whim, or my destination's weather has deteriorated or I had developed a technical fault. I call up field and they say "we only accept PPR by phone" and refuse landing. I go somewhere else where they don't have silly rules, half hoping the engine will quit and declare an emergency just to inconvenience them.
Some people are just hell bent on driving themselves out of business. What's it to me? Well, I've been in business for myself since I was 19 and it just drives me crazy that bad customer service not only is so prevalent, but even encouraged by many. If you're in the business of running an airfield, collecting landing fee's and providing the best support for your tenants on the field, be it a cafe or a maintenance facility, don't you owe it to them and your customers to be accessible and welcoming?
Once again, I'm not talking about small private airfield, 28-day rules etc - that's a different thing. But licensed and incorporated airfields in the business of airfielding. I just don't get it. Even if you lose only one customer because of it, that's one customer. He will tell all and sundry that this field is a PITA.
Just help me understand why this is good practice?
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 27th Jan 2012 at 14:24.
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I tend to phone to ask for any extra info, but I must be honest and say I don't get the objections to doing it, but I think if you want to just jump in then that's also fine.
I'm not some airline wanna-be all up on Pomp and Circumstance and procedures and would love to see a Transport System made out of GA where you can somewhat jump in and go 24/7, but if you want to spend 100GBP per hour or whatever flying somewhere only to find out that you can't land for some stupid reason - then I would have preferred to have known this before I set off so that I could decide on another plan.
It's only so that the £200 quid bacon buttie doesn't cost me £400!!!
I'm not some airline wanna-be all up on Pomp and Circumstance and procedures and would love to see a Transport System made out of GA where you can somewhat jump in and go 24/7, but if you want to spend 100GBP per hour or whatever flying somewhere only to find out that you can't land for some stupid reason - then I would have preferred to have known this before I set off so that I could decide on another plan.
It's only so that the £200 quid bacon buttie doesn't cost me £400!!!
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Nice point Adam. Case in point is Oban. They run it like a mini international airport - without the commercial traffic - bar the Islander doing the Island run.
Have you PPR'd first question as you come near.
Well no, speak to me on arrival states controller. Why???
If I call pre take off, to check local weather - PPR no problem. If I am up flying and decide to go to Oban, and talking with Scottish, who tell Oban I am coming - what is the problem. Apparently there is a problem, although no one can quite tell me what it is.
I used to think it ''good manners'' to call, but I am not sure anyone really cares.
Care to elaborate anyone? The other recent addition to the flock is Fife, apparently because the parachute guys are now there. But if they are flying and dropping, and I call up, I will hold off until they are done. No??
Anyway, big probs apparently if you do not PPR - INCIDENTLY BOTH ARE HEAVY ON HI VIZ JACKETS - CO-INCIDENCE?
Have you PPR'd first question as you come near.
Well no, speak to me on arrival states controller. Why???
If I call pre take off, to check local weather - PPR no problem. If I am up flying and decide to go to Oban, and talking with Scottish, who tell Oban I am coming - what is the problem. Apparently there is a problem, although no one can quite tell me what it is.
I used to think it ''good manners'' to call, but I am not sure anyone really cares.
Care to elaborate anyone? The other recent addition to the flock is Fife, apparently because the parachute guys are now there. But if they are flying and dropping, and I call up, I will hold off until they are done. No??
Anyway, big probs apparently if you do not PPR - INCIDENTLY BOTH ARE HEAVY ON HI VIZ JACKETS - CO-INCIDENCE?
Just help me understand why this is good practice?
I've some sympathy for airfields trying to persuade visitors to phone for a briefing. Most small airfields have noise-sensitive areas and many have non-standard circuits or joining arrangements; ignoring those can be dangerous. Briefing can sometimes be done over the air, but during busy times (e.g. fly-ins), which are the most critical times, life histories over the air are not on; there isn't always time for an over-the-air breifing.
My point, though, was that airfields can set whatever PPR conditions they choose, and we, as visiting pilots don't have the right to ignore them. I'd regard it as bordering on poor airmanship.