motor glider conversion to jar ppl
Joined: Feb 2011
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From: Hove
But aren't you training for a NPPL (SLMG) so do those hours count the same as TMG hours?
The reason so few people know about this is that TMG examiners are rare. AFAIK steakandchips' place is the only commercial operation in the country that teaches for the issue of a PPL TMG, (as opposed to adding a TMG rating to a PPL SEP.)
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 43
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From: Wales
I dont believe so, as it states 30 hours PIC, when you are training you are not PIC, therefore none of the PPL hours get wasted. If they count the Solo flying during your PPL as PIC then that is only 10 that get counted and leaves you with a further 20 to get after your PPL.
So in theory (I say theory as I am no expert), you could fly 65 hours in the TMG as 35 are under instruction and not PIC. 75 if the solo portion of the PPL doesnt count as PIC.
So in theory (I say theory as I am no expert), you could fly 65 hours in the TMG as 35 are under instruction and not PIC. 75 if the solo portion of the PPL doesnt count as PIC.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 802
Likes: 1
From: England
Well i'm still not convinced - from lasors
D1.2(D)
NOTES
The 200 hours flying experience may comprise flight time
in any of the following capacities:
•
Pilot-in-Command/Solo (PIC), counted in full.
•
Pilot-under-Instruction (Dual), counted in full.
The following credits will apply towards the total 200 hours
of flight time and not the specific requirements of (a)(i) and
(ii), (b) or (c) above:
i.
30 hours as pilot-in-command holding a PPL(H) on
helicopters; or
ii.
100 hours as pilot-in-command holding a CPL(H),
or as a QSP(H), on helicopters; or
iii.
30 hours as pilot-in-command in touring motor
gliders or gliders (including Vigilant)
So my take on it is that only 30 hours can count and they can be either PIC or PUT. A useful and worthwhile saving no doubt but I'm not convinced its any more than that.
D1.2(D)
NOTES
The 200 hours flying experience may comprise flight time
in any of the following capacities:
•
Pilot-in-Command/Solo (PIC), counted in full.
•
Pilot-under-Instruction (Dual), counted in full.
The following credits will apply towards the total 200 hours
of flight time and not the specific requirements of (a)(i) and
(ii), (b) or (c) above:
i.
30 hours as pilot-in-command holding a PPL(H) on
helicopters; or
ii.
100 hours as pilot-in-command holding a CPL(H),
or as a QSP(H), on helicopters; or
iii.
30 hours as pilot-in-command in touring motor
gliders or gliders (including Vigilant)
So my take on it is that only 30 hours can count and they can be either PIC or PUT. A useful and worthwhile saving no doubt but I'm not convinced its any more than that.
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 43
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From: Wales
The clarification that is needed (as I have said in my other posts) is that whether PUT is classed as PIC.
PIC is defined as the sole manipulator of the controls and has responsibility for the flight. You dont have that as PUT. Your dual time is not logged as PIC.
I'll see if I can contact the CAA to get verification.
PIC is defined as the sole manipulator of the controls and has responsibility for the flight. You dont have that as PUT. Your dual time is not logged as PIC.
I'll see if I can contact the CAA to get verification.
Last edited by HelipadR22; 27th January 2012 at 08:16.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 56
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From: On top of a hill
Thanks Helipad. I look forward to hearing what you get back from them!
I still don't think this is going to help anyone out financially*, as I still read it as meaning none of the dual motor glider hours during PPL training would count towards the CPL hour building (where SEP dual hours would). Hours which would have to be made up (and paid for) further down the line.
Personally, I think the whole thing is crazy. I have nearly 400 hours on TMG (much of it instructing), and as far as I'm concerned it is perfectly valid. After all, if the engine is running it is in fact an SEP (with long wings)!!
*There are of course many other good reasons for doing it...anything that broadens one's flying experience will make you a better pilot!
I still don't think this is going to help anyone out financially*, as I still read it as meaning none of the dual motor glider hours during PPL training would count towards the CPL hour building (where SEP dual hours would). Hours which would have to be made up (and paid for) further down the line.
Personally, I think the whole thing is crazy. I have nearly 400 hours on TMG (much of it instructing), and as far as I'm concerned it is perfectly valid. After all, if the engine is running it is in fact an SEP (with long wings)!!
*There are of course many other good reasons for doing it...anything that broadens one's flying experience will make you a better pilot!
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
From: Wales
Why would you think that none of the dual hours count? CPL says valid PPL(A) which a TMG one is as it needs to be done with a JAR instructor (not bga).
I've run this by a few very experienced people (instructors etc), they read it the same as me.
All your dual plus 30 PIC should count.
Hopefully the CAA wont simply respond with please see LASORS 2010 SECTIONS C1.2 AND D1.2(D)
I've run this by a few very experienced people (instructors etc), they read it the same as me.
All your dual plus 30 PIC should count.
Hopefully the CAA wont simply respond with please see LASORS 2010 SECTIONS C1.2 AND D1.2(D)
Last edited by HelipadR22; 29th January 2012 at 01:50. Reason: add jar instructor bit
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 56
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From: On top of a hill
Fingers crossed. Though knowing the CAA, that may be EXACTLY the answer you get back! 
The reason I read it the way I did is firstly because that was the conclusion when I asked around a couple of years ago and secondly, due to the following statement:
(n.b. "(a)(i)" is the 100 hours PIC requirement)
Now, as I read it, this is excluding all other motor glider flying by virtue of the fact that they include this specific exemption to be able to count those 30 hours PIC (but not as PIC time!).
However, looking at it again today, the only clues LASORS actually gives in the general CPL requirements are so wooly (e.g. "PPL(A)" and "must be flown in aeroplanes") that I'll admit I can also see that you could be entirely correct.
As usual, the rules are so badly written that such confusion can arise! However, I hope we'll all learn something useful from the discussion anyway (though probably just that I am talking complete rubbish, as usual
).
The reason I read it the way I did is firstly because that was the conclusion when I asked around a couple of years ago and secondly, due to the following statement:
The following credits will apply towards the total 200 hours of flight time and not the specific requirements of (a)(i)...
iii. 30 hours as pilot-in-command in touring motor gliders or gliders (including Vigilant)
iii. 30 hours as pilot-in-command in touring motor gliders or gliders (including Vigilant)
Now, as I read it, this is excluding all other motor glider flying by virtue of the fact that they include this specific exemption to be able to count those 30 hours PIC (but not as PIC time!).
However, looking at it again today, the only clues LASORS actually gives in the general CPL requirements are so wooly (e.g. "PPL(A)" and "must be flown in aeroplanes") that I'll admit I can also see that you could be entirely correct.
As usual, the rules are so badly written that such confusion can arise! However, I hope we'll all learn something useful from the discussion anyway (though probably just that I am talking complete rubbish, as usual
).
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,402
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
The clarification that is needed (as I have said in my other posts) is that whether PUT is classed as PIC.
I have now emailed the CAA for clarification, I will let you all know the outcome.
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 62
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From: London
I just came across this thread, out of curiosity, assuming I'm reading this correctly, it sounds like it is possible to get a PPL (TMG) and then potentially convert to SEP at some point later (if desired).
Lets gloss over whether this is cost efficient for now, I'm just curious as to whether anyone offers PPL (TMG) at the moment as I didn't even realise it was possible and it sort of appeals, getting the best of both worlds!
Lets gloss over whether this is cost efficient for now, I'm just curious as to whether anyone offers PPL (TMG) at the moment as I didn't even realise it was possible and it sort of appeals, getting the best of both worlds!
