Best Route To TMG & SEP Ratings
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Best Route To TMG & SEP Ratings
Hi All,
I'm going to throw myself at your mercy again and request your advice here please...
As you may have seen from my previous posts on another thread, I'm from the gliding world (currently an As-Cat Instructor with circa 1,000 hrs) and I've started learning to fly noisy things with HPFT at Hinton whom I'm very happy with thus far. My original intention was an NPPL TMG and then via 'differences training' an SEP rating as soon as possible thereafter.
Previously I always thought that the only Licence which would give me any credit for my gliding hours and qualification was the NPPL however I've now discovered one of the best kept secrets which is that there is a direct route from a Glider Pilot Licence to JAR / EASA PPL that I was unaware of. I therefore now need to decide whether the NPPL will meet my needs or if I should (subject to the CAA Class 2 Medical of course!) go the whole hog and go for the JAR/EASA PPL.
Whilst I'm pondering this, the more pressing decision I need to make is whether I do the training (i.e. min hours required + some) for whatever licence I opt for in primarily either a TMG (e.g G109 / Dimona) or a PA-38? Obviously the cheaper option is the TMG, but the saving is not as much as I thought it would be (assuming for example 15 hours dual and 4 hours differences in the case of the NPPL). To my way of thinking, coming from a lot of time in gliders the 'step change' for me is flying the PA-38 (or any GA aeroplane) as this feels totally different to the TMGs but do any of you have any sagely words of advice you can offer please?
Is it for example realistic to expect that once you have a TMG, you can add an SEP rating with only a few hours of 'differences training', or is it easier to start with a SEP and add a TMG?
I'd appreciate any advice from anyone who's either been there or is contemplating this.
Cheers,
Paul.
I'm going to throw myself at your mercy again and request your advice here please...
As you may have seen from my previous posts on another thread, I'm from the gliding world (currently an As-Cat Instructor with circa 1,000 hrs) and I've started learning to fly noisy things with HPFT at Hinton whom I'm very happy with thus far. My original intention was an NPPL TMG and then via 'differences training' an SEP rating as soon as possible thereafter.
Previously I always thought that the only Licence which would give me any credit for my gliding hours and qualification was the NPPL however I've now discovered one of the best kept secrets which is that there is a direct route from a Glider Pilot Licence to JAR / EASA PPL that I was unaware of. I therefore now need to decide whether the NPPL will meet my needs or if I should (subject to the CAA Class 2 Medical of course!) go the whole hog and go for the JAR/EASA PPL.
Whilst I'm pondering this, the more pressing decision I need to make is whether I do the training (i.e. min hours required + some) for whatever licence I opt for in primarily either a TMG (e.g G109 / Dimona) or a PA-38? Obviously the cheaper option is the TMG, but the saving is not as much as I thought it would be (assuming for example 15 hours dual and 4 hours differences in the case of the NPPL). To my way of thinking, coming from a lot of time in gliders the 'step change' for me is flying the PA-38 (or any GA aeroplane) as this feels totally different to the TMGs but do any of you have any sagely words of advice you can offer please?
Is it for example realistic to expect that once you have a TMG, you can add an SEP rating with only a few hours of 'differences training', or is it easier to start with a SEP and add a TMG?
I'd appreciate any advice from anyone who's either been there or is contemplating this.
Cheers,
Paul.
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From my own experience, I started flying gliders and achieved bronze badge. I then went and did a JAR PPL (did my PPL training the year before the NPPL came out) on a PA28 at EGBE whilst continuing to fly gliders. I did struggle with flying an aircraft with a yoke (which I just found to be counter-intuitive after flying aircraft with joysticks) and flying at a large airfield with ATC and an immense tarmac runway (looks worryingly hard compared to the grass I was used to) fairly daunting. Persevred and got my license. It was really very easy to add the TMG rating, just 1 hour flight with a JAR examiner (already fairly used to the Falke as I had some time flying it doing field landing checks from the gliding training). Not saying this was the right way to do this, nor very cost efficient but I did find flying 'spam can' aircraft very different to what I was used to. If I hadn't discovered flying Chipmunks I probably would have let my SEP rating lapse completely!
Do you
1) Want to fly at night?
2) Fly solo abroad ?
If the answer to both is no, then go the NPPL SLMG
If yes to either, then go the TMG route
You may well find that, after gliding, SSEA/SEP flying is boring; at least with the SLMG/TMG you can turn the engine off and fly properly.
( Also, with an SSEA/SEP rating, you may well find yourself stuck in the tug
on the best day of the year...)
Full cat gliding instructor, FI(SLMG) PPL and NPPL
1) Want to fly at night?
2) Fly solo abroad ?
If the answer to both is no, then go the NPPL SLMG
If yes to either, then go the TMG route
You may well find that, after gliding, SSEA/SEP flying is boring; at least with the SLMG/TMG you can turn the engine off and fly properly.
( Also, with an SSEA/SEP rating, you may well find yourself stuck in the tug
on the best day of the year...)
Full cat gliding instructor, FI(SLMG) PPL and NPPL
Last edited by kestrel539; 17th Jan 2012 at 17:15. Reason: Spelling
I've now discovered one of the best kept secrets which is that there is a direct route from a Glider Pilot Licence to JAR / EASA PPL
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Thanks all for your comments thus far...
In answer to the questions I've been asked, I can't ever see myself wanting (or being able to afford!) to fly to anywhere other than France, probably day VFR (but an IR rating could be useful being a glider pilot used to flying in cloud!) but if I was ever on holiday in the US or Caribbean - can you fly on a JAR/EASA Licence there or does it have to be FAA?
What would I fly after my Licence? If you are asking what can I realistically aspire to have a share in, then I'd probably say TMG - BUT I do hope to do a few hours in a spam can too! From what I'm hearing, I gather that while a TMG may be cheaper per hour to operate as regards fuel etc, when it comes to overall costs including maintenance and buying into them, they are actually dearer than say a PA-38. Would you agree with that?
Decisions, decisions....
In answer to the questions I've been asked, I can't ever see myself wanting (or being able to afford!) to fly to anywhere other than France, probably day VFR (but an IR rating could be useful being a glider pilot used to flying in cloud!) but if I was ever on holiday in the US or Caribbean - can you fly on a JAR/EASA Licence there or does it have to be FAA?
What would I fly after my Licence? If you are asking what can I realistically aspire to have a share in, then I'd probably say TMG - BUT I do hope to do a few hours in a spam can too! From what I'm hearing, I gather that while a TMG may be cheaper per hour to operate as regards fuel etc, when it comes to overall costs including maintenance and buying into them, they are actually dearer than say a PA-38. Would you agree with that?
Decisions, decisions....
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Mark has been speaking to Andy Miller at the BGA as we can get no sense from FCL at the CAA
1) The routes are either- Glider Pilots Licence with XC Endorsement to NPPL (SLMG)
We are told by the BGA that the NPPL will continue for at least another 12 months. You can then do differences training to SEP. Minimum 10 hours plus conversion training.
2) The CAA automatic phone answering service has a message that says that from 8/4/12 they will no longer be issuing JAR or UK National Licences but wont start issuing EASA licences until at least July!!!!!!!
3) The other route is the Silver C to JAR PPL. You get a 10 hour discount from the full 45 hour course. This is either for JAR PPL SEP or JAR PPL TMG.
4) We currently do not know if there is a Glider Pilots Licence to EASA licence route, or a Silver C to EASA PPL route, but we do know that a JAR PPL will be converted to a EASA PPL!
The BGA continue to talk to the CAA and EASA and Im sure the all will become as clear as springwater!
Confused- we are!!!! We suggest you continue training to solo, and then decide as soon as we have all the facts!
1) The routes are either- Glider Pilots Licence with XC Endorsement to NPPL (SLMG)
We are told by the BGA that the NPPL will continue for at least another 12 months. You can then do differences training to SEP. Minimum 10 hours plus conversion training.
2) The CAA automatic phone answering service has a message that says that from 8/4/12 they will no longer be issuing JAR or UK National Licences but wont start issuing EASA licences until at least July!!!!!!!
3) The other route is the Silver C to JAR PPL. You get a 10 hour discount from the full 45 hour course. This is either for JAR PPL SEP or JAR PPL TMG.
4) We currently do not know if there is a Glider Pilots Licence to EASA licence route, or a Silver C to EASA PPL route, but we do know that a JAR PPL will be converted to a EASA PPL!
The BGA continue to talk to the CAA and EASA and Im sure the all will become as clear as springwater!
Confused- we are!!!! We suggest you continue training to solo, and then decide as soon as we have all the facts!
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Ouch!
So that means with the Silver C to JAR/EASA PPL you have to do 35 hours and not 23 as discussed...??
Am totally confused now!!
So, if you end up with an NPPL (SLMG) - what do you have to do (i.e. how many hours) to get an SEP rating added?
So that means with the Silver C to JAR/EASA PPL you have to do 35 hours and not 23 as discussed...??
Am totally confused now!!
So, if you end up with an NPPL (SLMG) - what do you have to do (i.e. how many hours) to get an SEP rating added?
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Silver C to JAR/EASA PPL you have to do 35 hours
if you end up with an NPPL (SLMG) - what do you have to do (i.e. how many hours) to get an SEP rating added?
You can go straight from Silver to NPPL SSEA (not SEP). The minimum requirements are the same as for an SLMG rating, ie min 10 hours training, JAR PPL exams & skills test but you will probably find it easier (& quicker) to convert to SLMGs than SSEAs. In a year or two you will be able to apply for an EASA LAPL on the basis on an NPPL, & then turn an LAPL into an PPL(A) with an extra 10 hours training.
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Follow this!
Glider Pilot Licence to NPPL SLMG- MIN 10 hours plus Exams
NPPL SLMG to NPPL SEP 3 hours
NPPL to EASA PPL 10 hours-
TOTAL MIN = 23 HOURS
SILVER C to EASA PPL SEP= 35 hours
EASA PPL SEP TO ADD TMG = Min 3 hours
TOTAL MIN 38 hours for the same thing!!!!
Different ways of getting the same result!
Glider Pilot Licence to NPPL SLMG- MIN 10 hours plus Exams
NPPL SLMG to NPPL SEP 3 hours
NPPL to EASA PPL 10 hours-
TOTAL MIN = 23 HOURS
SILVER C to EASA PPL SEP= 35 hours
EASA PPL SEP TO ADD TMG = Min 3 hours
TOTAL MIN 38 hours for the same thing!!!!
Different ways of getting the same result!
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"2) The CAA automatic phone answering service has a message that says that from 8/4/12 they will no longer be issuing JAR or UK National Licences but wont start issuing EASA licences until at least July!!!!!!!"
Now for today's . . . no, make that 'this morning's' version of that!
The telephone message now says that EASA licences will be issued from 1st July 2012.
Their FAQ document says that JAA licences will continue to be renewed or issued in April, May and June.
I'm sure somebody somewhere knows exactly what's going on, I just wish I had their number!
Now for today's . . . no, make that 'this morning's' version of that!
The telephone message now says that EASA licences will be issued from 1st July 2012.
Their FAQ document says that JAA licences will continue to be renewed or issued in April, May and June.
I'm sure somebody somewhere knows exactly what's going on, I just wish I had their number!
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Whatever the confusing info suggests about getting a PPL/NPPL/EASA whatever, you need to understand that the hours given are minimums, and you will only actually get your licence when you reach the required skills level - don't assume (as I did) that the gliding experience (very valuable though it is) will necessarily enable you to do so in the minimum hours.
However you decide to do it, enjoy it and fly safe.
However you decide to do it, enjoy it and fly safe.
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Thanks all for your helpful suggestions and advice. Having now spent several hours trying to navigate the current confusion that is LASSOR and the proposed EASA changes in FCL, it seems that the NPPL(A) will continue until at least 2014 or 2015, BUT unless you obtain a JAR FCL PPA SEP (or TMG) before 08 April 2012, you will be into a bit of a grey area with a partially FCL compliant PPL until you can get a new EASA PPL from July 2012 onwards!
I think my plan as it now stands is to go NPPL(A) SSEA (or TMG) - and then once the confusion is settled, either convert this to the LAPL(A) or find the money to top up the NPPL into an EASA PPL SEP (or TMG) but thinking beyone this, I have two questions;-
(1) Does anyone know whether the additional ratings you can get added to an NPPL(A) SEP (e.g. wobbly prop, tailwheel and retracts etc) will be carried across to the LAPL(A) or will you truly be limited to a simple non complex aircraft with a LAPL(A)? I can find nothing which clarifies this.
(2) If I went NPPL(A) SLMG and then to EASA PPL TMG (without having done the SSEA / SEP differences at the NPPL stage), what do you need to do to add a SEP rating to the EASA PPL TMG? Is it just 'differences' or equivalent or do you need to do all the additional hours and GFT / Nav Ex again for the SEP rating?
Sorry to ask so many questions, but it's very confusing right now trying to second guess where I'll need to be in 2014 / 2015.
I think my plan as it now stands is to go NPPL(A) SSEA (or TMG) - and then once the confusion is settled, either convert this to the LAPL(A) or find the money to top up the NPPL into an EASA PPL SEP (or TMG) but thinking beyone this, I have two questions;-
(1) Does anyone know whether the additional ratings you can get added to an NPPL(A) SEP (e.g. wobbly prop, tailwheel and retracts etc) will be carried across to the LAPL(A) or will you truly be limited to a simple non complex aircraft with a LAPL(A)? I can find nothing which clarifies this.
(2) If I went NPPL(A) SLMG and then to EASA PPL TMG (without having done the SSEA / SEP differences at the NPPL stage), what do you need to do to add a SEP rating to the EASA PPL TMG? Is it just 'differences' or equivalent or do you need to do all the additional hours and GFT / Nav Ex again for the SEP rating?
Sorry to ask so many questions, but it's very confusing right now trying to second guess where I'll need to be in 2014 / 2015.
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CAA Licence info
FA - you might find this page on the CAA web site useful: Licensing and Training Standards | EASA | Safety Regulation
You will find one document which covers the effects of EASA on licences and another which is a FAQ document.
As I mentioned in #11, it seems that the CAA will continue to issue or renew the JAR licences in April, May and June of this year. Such licences will be changed to the EASA version when they expire, but will be treated as though they are EASA licences from 1st July.
Hope that helps!
You will find one document which covers the effects of EASA on licences and another which is a FAQ document.
As I mentioned in #11, it seems that the CAA will continue to issue or renew the JAR licences in April, May and June of this year. Such licences will be changed to the EASA version when they expire, but will be treated as though they are EASA licences from 1st July.
Hope that helps!
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it seems that the NPPL(A) will continue until at least 2014 or 2015
(1) Does anyone know whether the additional ratings you can get added to an NPPL(A) SEP (e.g. wobbly prop, tailwheel and retracts etc) will be carried across to the LAPL(A) or will you truly be limited to a simple non complex aircraft with a LAPL(A)? I can find nothing which clarifies this.
If I went NPPL(A) SLMG and then to EASA PPL TMG (without having done the SSEA / SEP differences at the NPPL stage), what do you need to do to add a SEP rating to the EASA PPL TMG?
Little bit of thread creep here, but, can anyone let me know what will happen to those pilots who hold a UK PPL SLMG only?
Got 2 of these at my club.
Cannot find anything in LASORS, nor on the CAA FAQ paper
Got 2 of these at my club.
Cannot find anything in LASORS, nor on the CAA FAQ paper
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Hi Anorak. I went through he same minefield as you last year, I have a silver badge and I was trying to find the cheapest way to do TMG and SEP NPPL. I just bit the bullet in the end and did the JAR PPL. I know it's longer, you only get a max of ten hours 'glider discount' etc but I'm glad I did it that way. I now don't have to worry about whether I want to go abroad, fly at night etc because I can if I want to, and the chances of me getting stuck somewhere are reduced. I might add since I was issued the license last July I've done my night rating and am just waiting to do the IMC flying exam, you can't do those on an NPPL. The way I see it I've got all bases covered and can basically go anywhere in Europe, given the weather obviously.
It's not boring at all, it places completely different demands on your flying skills and you can say it's equally as boring hanging around in January on a cold glider field all day for a couple of 5 minute circuits. You can also sling a couple of mates/wife etc in an SEP and actually go somewhere. With the heater on. In comfort.
They are two completely different disciplines, each with their own pros and cons and I think it would be a mistake to think of SEP flying as 'gliding but different.' I'm not saying you would think that but I've soon other glider pilots approach it that way.
It's not boring at all, it places completely different demands on your flying skills and you can say it's equally as boring hanging around in January on a cold glider field all day for a couple of 5 minute circuits. You can also sling a couple of mates/wife etc in an SEP and actually go somewhere. With the heater on. In comfort.
They are two completely different disciplines, each with their own pros and cons and I think it would be a mistake to think of SEP flying as 'gliding but different.' I'm not saying you would think that but I've soon other glider pilots approach it that way.
