CRP-5 a requirement for PPL?
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CRP-5 a requirement for PPL?
Hi guys
Just want to hear whether the CRP-5 Flight computer is a requirement for the PPL exams or not?
I have just received one, just before my exams and it's seems to be a bit complex
I just wonder if my school expects me to know this instrument well, just before my exams? I had expected to have some kind of instruction in it?
Best Regard
Just want to hear whether the CRP-5 Flight computer is a requirement for the PPL exams or not?
I have just received one, just before my exams and it's seems to be a bit complex
I just wonder if my school expects me to know this instrument well, just before my exams? I had expected to have some kind of instruction in it?
Best Regard
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It is indeed an archaic tool which is redundant given the multitude of alternatives. The 'calculation' side is much more easily performed with a calculator and a list of conversion factors - far simpler, and more accurate than using the CRP-5. The 'wind' side is less complicated, but again there are electronic alternatives (or even iPhone apps) which will do the job.
The FAA permit certain electronic flight computers for the PPL exams.
You ARE allowed a non-programmable calculator for the PPL exams in the UK, but especially for navigation, you won't be able to use that alone to complete the exam successfully. For the actual exams, you may find it useful to use the CRP-5. In day-to-day flying, there are far better ways of doing the same job.
I for one cannot understand why the CAA are so reluctant to move ahead with the times and adopt and embrace new technology. The old line about the 'batteries failing' really is weak.
The FAA permit certain electronic flight computers for the PPL exams.
You ARE allowed a non-programmable calculator for the PPL exams in the UK, but especially for navigation, you won't be able to use that alone to complete the exam successfully. For the actual exams, you may find it useful to use the CRP-5. In day-to-day flying, there are far better ways of doing the same job.
I for one cannot understand why the CAA are so reluctant to move ahead with the times and adopt and embrace new technology. The old line about the 'batteries failing' really is weak.
That or something similar, yes.
And it's really not that complex - a generation ago, most people learned to use a linear slide rule at about age 11 - this is just a circular slide rule, or the same thing wrapped around a circle. Persevere and you'll realise that it's actually quite a useful and flexible planning tool, if not the only (or in the 21st centure, the best) way to do it.
G
And it's really not that complex - a generation ago, most people learned to use a linear slide rule at about age 11 - this is just a circular slide rule, or the same thing wrapped around a circle. Persevere and you'll realise that it's actually quite a useful and flexible planning tool, if not the only (or in the 21st centure, the best) way to do it.
G
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It has never actually been mandatory, it is just that you are not allowed programmable electronic devices. So you have to do the calcs manually. None of the conversions in the exams requires a whizz wheel and the wind calcs are just basic trig.
However the whizz wheel is not difficult to use and your instructor should be showing you how to use it.
There are a number of interactive CD Rom based tools and online web tools that will easily show you how to use the whizz wheel.
Maybe one day the CAA will wake up and smell the coffee and realise that the reason student numbers are dropping is the Nintendo generation are not interested in archaic slide rules. Then maybe they will allow the use of electronic E6B computers. But in the meantime, chin up and get on with it!!
However the whizz wheel is not difficult to use and your instructor should be showing you how to use it.
There are a number of interactive CD Rom based tools and online web tools that will easily show you how to use the whizz wheel.
Maybe one day the CAA will wake up and smell the coffee and realise that the reason student numbers are dropping is the Nintendo generation are not interested in archaic slide rules. Then maybe they will allow the use of electronic E6B computers. But in the meantime, chin up and get on with it!!
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It may not have been "mandatory" (which kind of ties in with there not being any mandatory ground school anyway, in the PPL) but it was de facto mandatory because the nav exam had questions whose options were carefully drafted to draw in common slide rule errors where you get the answer 1 or 2 degrees out by doing the extra iterative step the wrong way, etc.
If you used a different rule, e.g. the Jepp CR-5, you could get different results because AFAICT the procedure is slightly different (there is no sliding portion). I did actually learn the CR-5 wind calcs recently but instantly forgot.
The fact that not even a £50000 slaved compass + autopilot system cannot fly that accurately is something else..........
Whether the exams have been revised to allow somebody with a trig calculator using the answer which is actually exactly correct, I don't know.
I am afraid the damage to GA as a credible leisure activity for intelligent modern individuals has been done long ago. It was well ongoing when I started in 2000. Only the most obscessive people got on with it and stuck in there. A disgrace.
If you used a different rule, e.g. the Jepp CR-5, you could get different results because AFAICT the procedure is slightly different (there is no sliding portion). I did actually learn the CR-5 wind calcs recently but instantly forgot.
The fact that not even a £50000 slaved compass + autopilot system cannot fly that accurately is something else..........
Whether the exams have been revised to allow somebody with a trig calculator using the answer which is actually exactly correct, I don't know.
I am afraid the damage to GA as a credible leisure activity for intelligent modern individuals has been done long ago. It was well ongoing when I started in 2000. Only the most obscessive people got on with it and stuck in there. A disgrace.
@Bose-X: I suppose this argument has been done over and again, but I for one will not grumble at any way of keeping the Nintendo generation out of the skies. That is to say, as long as they think the Nintendo way.
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If you remember a few conversion factors and the sine law for wind calculations ( TAS / sin(WA) = WS / sin(WCA) = GS / sin(WA-WCA) ), then you're all set.
IAS/TAS calculations are not part of PPL or IR but rules of thumb should be sufficient in case it pop up.
IAS/TAS calculations are not part of PPL or IR but rules of thumb should be sufficient in case it pop up.
Whether the exams have been revised to allow somebody with a trig calculator using the answer which is actually exactly correct, I don't know.
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Whiz wheel equals best learning tool...
I find that the experieced pilots who don't understand why the whiz wheel is still used at ab-initio training stage have mostly forgotten how much they know and dont realise how difficult it can be for students to see what is happening. I mean they can safely do nav calcs using whatever app they want. But learners must develop an understanding of how the wind affects their flight and the triangle of velocities and the whiz wheel are a superb visual tool for learning that and developing the ability to read the big picture.
Without the feel for things there is too much likelyhood of making an error inputting data to the calculator and not spotting that the answer is rubbish.
The UK PPL exams ensure that the student has understood enough to have developed that ability to see the picture - they can ditch the whiz wheel after the exam if they want to.
Heston
I find that the experieced pilots who don't understand why the whiz wheel is still used at ab-initio training stage have mostly forgotten how much they know and dont realise how difficult it can be for students to see what is happening. I mean they can safely do nav calcs using whatever app they want. But learners must develop an understanding of how the wind affects their flight and the triangle of velocities and the whiz wheel are a superb visual tool for learning that and developing the ability to read the big picture.
Without the feel for things there is too much likelyhood of making an error inputting data to the calculator and not spotting that the answer is rubbish.
The UK PPL exams ensure that the student has understood enough to have developed that ability to see the picture - they can ditch the whiz wheel after the exam if they want to.
Heston
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@Bose-X: I suppose this argument has been done over and again, but I for one will not grumble at any way of keeping the Nintendo generation out of the skies. That is to say, as long as they think the Nintendo way.
My children are not interested in learning to fly despite having it on a plate. They see it as full of boring old people and silly 'historical' slide rules. There friends are the same. The Nintendo generation or no less smart or safe than the slide rule operators, they just understand things in a different way. It's evolution. Could you imagine lighting your house with a gas lamp....
If we are to attract new blood then we have to adapt to the times I am afraid.
I bought myself a CRP2 on ebay, then felt a bit of a wally when I turned up and everybody else had a CRP1. The CRP2 does things like calculating aircraft skin temperature rises and compressibility for speeds approaching mach-1. Assuming that a CRP-3 is more complex again, I imagine an CRP-5 lets you fly the space shuttle?
I quite like the things in concept, but I tend to agree with Peter that they're a bit of an anachronism. Of course, 11-year-olds can use them, but then they had at least 6 years of practice before they could get their PPLs so I imagine the concept came naturally to them by then. Sure, they don't need batteries. But they do need a degree of familiarity to use quickly and correctly. There are silly mistakes I've made on a whizz-wheel like getting the dividend/divisor back to front, that I simply wouldn't make on an electronic calculator, so it goes both ways.
My other gripe is that the ergonomics of mine are so poor. The wind-wheel's fairly stiff and some teeth on it would make it easier to turn. My impression is that it's really an 'exam' instrument rather than something that was even intended to be used as a practical, everyday instrument.
Didn't yours come with a booklet to tell you how to use it? Mine came with a booklet for the CRP 1 which I'd recommend.
I quite like the things in concept, but I tend to agree with Peter that they're a bit of an anachronism. Of course, 11-year-olds can use them, but then they had at least 6 years of practice before they could get their PPLs so I imagine the concept came naturally to them by then. Sure, they don't need batteries. But they do need a degree of familiarity to use quickly and correctly. There are silly mistakes I've made on a whizz-wheel like getting the dividend/divisor back to front, that I simply wouldn't make on an electronic calculator, so it goes both ways.
My other gripe is that the ergonomics of mine are so poor. The wind-wheel's fairly stiff and some teeth on it would make it easier to turn. My impression is that it's really an 'exam' instrument rather than something that was even intended to be used as a practical, everyday instrument.
Didn't yours come with a booklet to tell you how to use it? Mine came with a booklet for the CRP 1 which I'd recommend.
Last edited by abgd; 8th Jan 2012 at 11:11.
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In 2005, the programmed electronic CX-2 flight computer was perfetcly legal (and standard) for the JAR PPL exams in Germany (but not for CPL or ATPL theory). So I guess, the replies are mainly UK specific.
Where do you want to do your PPL? In Spain? Why don't you just ask the flight school, they should know.
Where do you want to do your PPL? In Spain? Why don't you just ask the flight school, they should know.
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Rapattack,
IIRC, the CRP-5 I had came with a small information 'book', only about 20-30 pages long and no bigger than an iPhone.
A couple of nights reading that before bed is enough to get a real grip on it. Pick it up a few times a day and practice the exercises that are in there, it's surprisingly easy to learn what looks initially like a complex bit of kit.
IIRC, the CRP-5 I had came with a small information 'book', only about 20-30 pages long and no bigger than an iPhone.
A couple of nights reading that before bed is enough to get a real grip on it. Pick it up a few times a day and practice the exercises that are in there, it's surprisingly easy to learn what looks initially like a complex bit of kit.
Just as an aside, I did my CPL a few years ago - which is basically a PPL on steroids. For that I bought an Aviat-617 which makes the CRP-5 look basic, and would have cost a fortune if I hadn't got lucky on eBay. (Working a lot professionally in flight mechanics, it lives in my briefcase and I use a CRP-1W for everyday flight planning, which is perfect for that and would also be perfect for any PPL).
But once in a while, I couldn't get a trustworthy answer out of even the Aviat in an exam - so I just got my ruler and protractor and drew a wind triangle. Slightly slower, but incredibly accurate and works every time. And permissible in all PPL and CPL exams.
G
But once in a while, I couldn't get a trustworthy answer out of even the Aviat in an exam - so I just got my ruler and protractor and drew a wind triangle. Slightly slower, but incredibly accurate and works every time. And permissible in all PPL and CPL exams.
G
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a generation ago, most people learned to use a linear slide rule at about age 11
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And just to emphasise what I said earlier - the advantage of slide rules and whiz wheels is that you can SEE why the answer is what it is.
(if you can't see, or don't understand what I mean, then you haven't been taught properly)
Heston
(if you can't see, or don't understand what I mean, then you haven't been taught properly)
Heston
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Just want to hear whether the CRP-5 Flight computer is a requirement for the PPL exams or not?
I have just received one, just before my exams and it's seems to be a bit complex
I have just received one, just before my exams and it's seems to be a bit complex
I think the CAA rules are not exactly the most practical on nav, as the military way is much better....but hey, learning both is fine... makes sure we can nav all ways round!
Ref training to use the Whizz wheel. Mine has come with an instruction booklet, I also have Jeremy Pratts book and the best thing of all...ask your instructor as I do...I am sure he/she will not mind helping you out?!
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I must admit that I really like the Whizzwheel. It does require that you have a good feeling for the answer including working out the place of the decimal point. This certainly sharpens up mental arithmetic which does really seem to be a problem for the computer generation. I also like the wind side as it does help visualise the issues relating to wind speed and direction.
My impression in general is that GA is stuck in a bit of a timewarp. The majority of the aircraft we fly were designed in the 1950s and run with engines designed in the 1930s and 1940s Admittedly there have been massive changes in avionics and we can take benefit from some of these even in the oldest spamcans using stand alone GPS for example.
I would like to see some teaching of GPS in the PPL syllabus however I think that the whizzwheel should remain. As I mentioned there is a woeful lack of mental arithmetic among the younger generation and learning the whizzwheel really helps sharpen those skills.
Caber
My impression in general is that GA is stuck in a bit of a timewarp. The majority of the aircraft we fly were designed in the 1950s and run with engines designed in the 1930s and 1940s Admittedly there have been massive changes in avionics and we can take benefit from some of these even in the oldest spamcans using stand alone GPS for example.
I would like to see some teaching of GPS in the PPL syllabus however I think that the whizzwheel should remain. As I mentioned there is a woeful lack of mental arithmetic among the younger generation and learning the whizzwheel really helps sharpen those skills.
Caber