PPL in the North-West - Options?
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GQ, enjoy your Grob; they are fine aeroplanes once off the ground and if you are not concerned by what I said about them (in particular that there are only two, and both at one school), then enjoy!
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I agree with Grob Queen. I love the Grob. I learned to fly on in in 2007-8 and also fly the PA28 and C150. Apart from getting it off the ground from Barton's short and soggy strip it is delightful to fly. Having said that I have never had a problem getting airbourne it just takes it's time.
Join Date: Sep 2011
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I have never had a problem getting airborne in a Grob either (well, not one which was the fault of the aircraft...
). Taking off from our grass strip is interesting, but that I am sure is just due to my inexperience (and preference for our tarmac runways)...
There are at least four Grob 115As in circulation as we have two and there are the two at Barton!!
). Taking off from our grass strip is interesting, but that I am sure is just due to my inexperience (and preference for our tarmac runways)...There are at least four Grob 115As in circulation as we have two and there are the two at Barton!!
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A few comments on the above advice
None of the aircraft above will be a problem to a normal and well taught student pilot.
Aircraft reliabilty is going to be a big issue as your training is likely to be disrupted if the aircraft goes "Tech". Look for a club that has aircraft that look well cared for, if the underside looks like it has not been cleaned since the Bay city rollers topped the charts and the inside smells like the home for some sort of pond life you can bet the aircraft is maintaned to the minimum standard.
As said above none of the aircraft are going to be a problem for a PPL to fly but the PA28 will burn about 36lt/hr and the C152 about 23lt/hr, with Avgas at about £2/lt this is going to favour the C150/C152 on cost grounds.
The C152 is from a maintenance point of view a very well sorted C150 and so should be more reliable but maintenance is key to this.
The Grob is a nice aircraft but is not to be confused with the RAF trainer of the same name, that is a carbon aircraft with a 180 hp engine, the 115A is a glass aircraft with 115 hp engine and not a good short field performer, a disadvantage when flying out of a short grass airfield.
Most of the new Rotax powered aircraft that get rave reviews on these pages (with the exeption of the Tecnam) are not man enough for the training enviroment and will be falling apart with very few hours in the log book.
The final problem with the more unusual aircraft is parts supply, you can get almost anything for Cessna or Piper from parts companies stock in the UK, with other aircraft the parts are likely to be on the shelf at the factory and take longer to arrive.
So to keep the costs of your training down you should be looking for the nearest club to your home that has C150/C152 or PA28's that get a good standard of maintenance, Im not saying that you wont get a good deal with another type of aircraft but by sticking to the usual aircraft you will load the dice in your favour.
Aircraft reliabilty is going to be a big issue as your training is likely to be disrupted if the aircraft goes "Tech". Look for a club that has aircraft that look well cared for, if the underside looks like it has not been cleaned since the Bay city rollers topped the charts and the inside smells like the home for some sort of pond life you can bet the aircraft is maintaned to the minimum standard.
As said above none of the aircraft are going to be a problem for a PPL to fly but the PA28 will burn about 36lt/hr and the C152 about 23lt/hr, with Avgas at about £2/lt this is going to favour the C150/C152 on cost grounds.
The C152 is from a maintenance point of view a very well sorted C150 and so should be more reliable but maintenance is key to this.
The Grob is a nice aircraft but is not to be confused with the RAF trainer of the same name, that is a carbon aircraft with a 180 hp engine, the 115A is a glass aircraft with 115 hp engine and not a good short field performer, a disadvantage when flying out of a short grass airfield.
Most of the new Rotax powered aircraft that get rave reviews on these pages (with the exeption of the Tecnam) are not man enough for the training enviroment and will be falling apart with very few hours in the log book.
The final problem with the more unusual aircraft is parts supply, you can get almost anything for Cessna or Piper from parts companies stock in the UK, with other aircraft the parts are likely to be on the shelf at the factory and take longer to arrive.
So to keep the costs of your training down you should be looking for the nearest club to your home that has C150/C152 or PA28's that get a good standard of maintenance, Im not saying that you wont get a good deal with another type of aircraft but by sticking to the usual aircraft you will load the dice in your favour.
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Where are the non-Barton ones?
None of the aircraft above will be a problem to a normal and well taught student pilot.
The Grob is a nice aircraft but is not to be confused with the RAF trainer of the same name, that is a carbon aircraft with a 180 hp engine, the 115A is a glass aircraft with 115 hp engine and not a good short field performer, a disadvantage when flying out of a short grass airfield.
As I said, as far as I am concerned, the only problem with using a grass strip is pilot experience...the Grob has more than enough legs to use grass...its just inexperienced pilots getting the hang of more power on a grass take off run! (spoken with an aforementioned inexperienced pilot viewpoint). True, spare parts need to come from Germany, but is that such a bad thing??
As we seem to be discussing the technical abilities of the Grob 115A in TakeOff, I have the FRCs in front of me:
No wind t/o distance - 2310ft (2775ft grass)
No wind ground run - 1380ft (1850ft grass)
Fuel used in taxi and take off 5 litres
Fuel used in climb to 5,000ft 5 litres
Cruise - max weight, leaned, 2600rpm 103kts, 25litres fuel used per hour.
Ok so these figures add weight to the "Not good on grass strip t/o" argument; And of course yes, I love the Firefly, that is in a different class! But from what I have seen and experienced, the 115A is a good, reliable trainer.
Join Date: Jan 1999
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Grob Queen
My point about spare parts is one of avalability, I can order most things for a Piper or Cessns and expect them to turn up the next day by standard post.
I have no doubt that Grob could supply most of the parts for their aircraft in the same short order but this would require the use of FEDEX, UPS, DHL or the like, that can turn a 5 Euro part into a 50 Euro part if you want it overnight. This is more of a problem with European light aircraft as they tend to use Metric Nuts & Bolts Etc that is non standard from an Aerospace point of view.
So the result of this is the Grob operator is more likely to have an aircraft on the ground awaiting parts than the operator of an American aircraft Or having to charge the rate that takes into account the use of overnight frieght companys.
I have no doubt that Grob could supply most of the parts for their aircraft in the same short order but this would require the use of FEDEX, UPS, DHL or the like, that can turn a 5 Euro part into a 50 Euro part if you want it overnight. This is more of a problem with European light aircraft as they tend to use Metric Nuts & Bolts Etc that is non standard from an Aerospace point of view.
So the result of this is the Grob operator is more likely to have an aircraft on the ground awaiting parts than the operator of an American aircraft Or having to charge the rate that takes into account the use of overnight frieght companys.
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Personally, I would be careful with Ravenair from personal experience, but I think everyone can list flying schools they like and don't. Its down to personal preference and what you want from your flying school.
Maybe go around a few and sit down with them have have a brew! Hanging around for a hour, you generally get a better feel for each of the schools and see how you fit in! You don't want to be at a school where you don't feel comfortable.
I would definitely look at Hawarden as like Legal Beagle said, its not too far away from liverpool, and once your up, your into the local area which is perfect for training as there is lots of free space. Flintshire flying school are a great bunch as well.
Maybe go around a few and sit down with them have have a brew! Hanging around for a hour, you generally get a better feel for each of the schools and see how you fit in! You don't want to be at a school where you don't feel comfortable.
I would definitely look at Hawarden as like Legal Beagle said, its not too far away from liverpool, and once your up, your into the local area which is perfect for training as there is lots of free space. Flintshire flying school are a great bunch as well.
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Ah, so the 2 Grobs at EGCB are indeed the only 2 north west ones?
My point about spare parts is one of avalability......
I have no doubt that Grob could supply most of the parts for their aircraft in the same short order but this would require the use of FEDEX, UPS, DHL or the like, that can turn a 5 Euro part into a 50 Euro part if you want it overnight. This is more of a problem with European light aircraft as they tend to use Metric Nuts & Bolts Etc that is non standard from an Aerospace point of view.
So the result of this is the Grob operator is more likely to have an aircraft on the ground awaiting parts than the operator of an American aircraft Or having to charge the rate that takes into account the use of overnight frieght companys.
I have no doubt that Grob could supply most of the parts for their aircraft in the same short order but this would require the use of FEDEX, UPS, DHL or the like, that can turn a 5 Euro part into a 50 Euro part if you want it overnight. This is more of a problem with European light aircraft as they tend to use Metric Nuts & Bolts Etc that is non standard from an Aerospace point of view.
So the result of this is the Grob operator is more likely to have an aircraft on the ground awaiting parts than the operator of an American aircraft Or having to charge the rate that takes into account the use of overnight frieght companys.
Join Date: Mar 2008
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If your thinking of going commercial then the one thing everyone that has your interests in mind should say is get down to gatwick and make sure you can get you class 1, if you cant get this then it;s a non starter.
As others have said before you pick a school visit them, see how well they look after you, are they just telling what you want to hear ? do they show you around their planes ? do they make time for you, after all it's a lot of money.
Can also ask if they do anything specific for you considering your thinking of going commercial, CPL standards are much higher than PPL if you get into best practises from the start will make your CPL easier.
While there are data protection points to think about, ask the school to let you talk to a current student see what they say.
I've flown a grob at Barton, great ac, loved the seat and controls set up the most and it's very sensitive to control inputs. However the C152 is the most common training ac in the world and the PA38 is the most popular low wing trainer. There is a reason
I teach on Pa38 and it makes life so much easier when an a/c is designed to be a trainer.
But go with what you like, its good to like the ac you fly
For sure the best addvice others have written is no money up front, if it's full upfront payment of all of the PPL I'd run, fast ! but pay as you fly is near always going to be more expensive than a package, this is mostly down to the second bigest cost being landing / circuit fees and these are usualy always all included in a pack, but check the small print some schools sneek small print in of 'only at base airfield'
When it comes to packs I've still to find one that does include all the costs and is upfront about the extras, having a bug bare on hidden costs, students paying over the odds and no real totaly impartial place to go to get advice from was how Target Aviation was born.
If you need any info on options be it ppl cpl or atpl, costs or how to attack it then drop me a mail to customers.first AT targetaviation.co.uk I also have some factsheets and pathway sheets that you may find helpful.
Regards
Oh and maybe looking like a good time to think about commercial know of 4 instructors that have been offered airline jobs in the last 2 months..... at last
As others have said before you pick a school visit them, see how well they look after you, are they just telling what you want to hear ? do they show you around their planes ? do they make time for you, after all it's a lot of money.
Can also ask if they do anything specific for you considering your thinking of going commercial, CPL standards are much higher than PPL if you get into best practises from the start will make your CPL easier.
While there are data protection points to think about, ask the school to let you talk to a current student see what they say.
I've flown a grob at Barton, great ac, loved the seat and controls set up the most and it's very sensitive to control inputs. However the C152 is the most common training ac in the world and the PA38 is the most popular low wing trainer. There is a reason
I teach on Pa38 and it makes life so much easier when an a/c is designed to be a trainer. But go with what you like, its good to like the ac you fly
For sure the best addvice others have written is no money up front, if it's full upfront payment of all of the PPL I'd run, fast ! but pay as you fly is near always going to be more expensive than a package, this is mostly down to the second bigest cost being landing / circuit fees and these are usualy always all included in a pack, but check the small print some schools sneek small print in of 'only at base airfield'
When it comes to packs I've still to find one that does include all the costs and is upfront about the extras, having a bug bare on hidden costs, students paying over the odds and no real totaly impartial place to go to get advice from was how Target Aviation was born.
If you need any info on options be it ppl cpl or atpl, costs or how to attack it then drop me a mail to customers.first AT targetaviation.co.uk I also have some factsheets and pathway sheets that you may find helpful.
Regards
Oh and maybe looking like a good time to think about commercial know of 4 instructors that have been offered airline jobs in the last 2 months..... at last
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Hi guys, just a quick video of a trial lesson from liverpool with merseyflight (minus the ground briefings) this is just a quick video i did on my break, i realise the quality isnt fantastic but hopefully gives a taster of what it entails. have a look anyway!
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How likely is it that you will become an ATPL or is it just a general aim?
If you want to gain an ATPL and become a Commercial pilot above everything else I would try to find out what airlines would require from you. As others have said, talk to other pilots with the same aim or with commercial experience; can you get a Class 1 medical? Does it make a difference how quickly you went solo, gained your PPL, how fast can you gain P1 hours? Should you train where there is ATC?
If it is just a general aim then convenience and enjoying the club/type of aircraft you fly has more importance.
If you want to gain an ATPL and become a Commercial pilot above everything else I would try to find out what airlines would require from you. As others have said, talk to other pilots with the same aim or with commercial experience; can you get a Class 1 medical? Does it make a difference how quickly you went solo, gained your PPL, how fast can you gain P1 hours? Should you train where there is ATC?
If it is just a general aim then convenience and enjoying the club/type of aircraft you fly has more importance.
