A Cautionary Tale ?
Join Date: May 2001
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Its bizarre actually who does use the Captain ****e.
BALPA do until you tell them not to.
If you have interactions with some Mil units the letters etc are addressed to Capt. but I can understand this with rank structure etc.
I don't mind work stuff to be honest going to the company but if its sent too my home address I get a bit annoyed especially when they just presume even after filling a form with Mr on it. Once ordered some 4 bars from an online shop because I lost mine and they got delivered to Capt MJ.
There are some knob Jockeys out there that use it on every bit of paper work they can get it on. I have no doubt There are cards/paperwork out there with Capt Robert Weaver on them.
I haven't a clue who should use it and who shouldn't, Some areas of the world every pilot is called Captain. The only time I get called Captain in Europe is when very rarely when I have had to have words with handling or ground crew or the ramp rats are taking the piss.
BALPA do until you tell them not to.
If you have interactions with some Mil units the letters etc are addressed to Capt. but I can understand this with rank structure etc.
I don't mind work stuff to be honest going to the company but if its sent too my home address I get a bit annoyed especially when they just presume even after filling a form with Mr on it. Once ordered some 4 bars from an online shop because I lost mine and they got delivered to Capt MJ.
There are some knob Jockeys out there that use it on every bit of paper work they can get it on. I have no doubt There are cards/paperwork out there with Capt Robert Weaver on them.
I haven't a clue who should use it and who shouldn't, Some areas of the world every pilot is called Captain. The only time I get called Captain in Europe is when very rarely when I have had to have words with handling or ground crew or the ramp rats are taking the piss.
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No I don't especially when I put Mr on the form especially when the prats had an option for Capt which I didn't select.
And as it hasn't had an outing for a while
We have of course got the famous captains ring.
And gawd knows what they would call you if you ordered the five bar option.
And as it hasn't had an outing for a while
We have of course got the famous captains ring.
And gawd knows what they would call you if you ordered the five bar option.
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On the subject of 'Captaincy'...
Carrying on the thread-drift to which should possibly be asked in another PPRuNe forum: Why do airline and some commercial pilots use the title "Captain", rather than their actual capacity which is "Pilot-in-Command"? Also, why is the Second Pilot referred to as "First Officer" when he is also the only other 'officer' in the aeroplane?
My first thought was that this could be a throw-back to the days of the airships, when early airlines would use a nautical hierarchy to emulate passenger-carrying vessels at sea; but if the modern airlines were really trying to emulate the traditional airlines then why give the 'Captain' or the 'First Officer' a pilot's licence instead of an aerial 'Master's ticket'?
At sea, the 'pilot' is the chap who comes to meet you in a tug to pilot one's vessel safely into harbour; so in the airline industry, shouldn't this accolade surely be awarded to the ground marshalls who direct the aircraft safely to the gate?
I realise that much of the terminology in aviation has origins in the mariner's profession, but in some ways the aeronautical is quite distinct from the nautical and perhaps modern usage should reflect this. After all, the airliner's 'cockpit' seems to have become a 'Flight Deck'; perhaps the 'Captain' should become the "Pilot-in-Command"?
My first thought was that this could be a throw-back to the days of the airships, when early airlines would use a nautical hierarchy to emulate passenger-carrying vessels at sea; but if the modern airlines were really trying to emulate the traditional airlines then why give the 'Captain' or the 'First Officer' a pilot's licence instead of an aerial 'Master's ticket'?
At sea, the 'pilot' is the chap who comes to meet you in a tug to pilot one's vessel safely into harbour; so in the airline industry, shouldn't this accolade surely be awarded to the ground marshalls who direct the aircraft safely to the gate?
I realise that much of the terminology in aviation has origins in the mariner's profession, but in some ways the aeronautical is quite distinct from the nautical and perhaps modern usage should reflect this. After all, the airliner's 'cockpit' seems to have become a 'Flight Deck'; perhaps the 'Captain' should become the "Pilot-in-Command"?
Just to drift a bit further .... many, many years ago I got to visit the drivers on a big Hoverlloyd SRN-4 mid channel and they were sat at very aircraft like controls.
When I asked what aeronautical training and qualification they had to drive the contraption I was told very firmly "None .. Because this is a Ship !!!!"
It transpired that the gentleman in the LH seat was THE Captain, but the guy in the RH seat was also A Captain as they both had master mariners certificates and pilots qualifications for various bits of the English Channel.
The guy with the real responsibility was the man with his head down a tube over the radar set shouting a constant string of directional instructions to the drivers to stop them banging into the many ships that kept appearing out of the mile or so visibility while we charged round at about 50 kts.
When I asked what aeronautical training and qualification they had to drive the contraption I was told very firmly "None .. Because this is a Ship !!!!"
It transpired that the gentleman in the LH seat was THE Captain, but the guy in the RH seat was also A Captain as they both had master mariners certificates and pilots qualifications for various bits of the English Channel.
The guy with the real responsibility was the man with his head down a tube over the radar set shouting a constant string of directional instructions to the drivers to stop them banging into the many ships that kept appearing out of the mile or so visibility while we charged round at about 50 kts.
I read a book recently on the history of the East India Company, and in particular its ships.
The ships had a captain, but then 1st mate, 2nd mate, 3rd mate and so-on.
It seemed necessary if breaking into the job, to effectively buy your way with a combination of passage and training into 5th or 6th mate, and generally each voyage (a voyage typically taking 2-3 years) you had a chance of climbing the ladder one rung. At about 3rd mate, the income started to catch up on the training debt, 2nd mates actually had spare money, and a captain needed 2-3 voyages (i.e. 6-10 years) to then retire comfortable for the rest of their lives.
Other specialist jobs (carpenters, traders, and so-on) had their own separate career structures, were cheaper to get into, but the rewards were lower as well.
Nothing like modern aviation at-all really
In the modern merchant navy, incidentally, I think it's a requirement - and has been for most of a century, that to fill a command position, you have to be qualified to do the job above you. So, a first mate has to hold a masters certificate, for example.
G
The ships had a captain, but then 1st mate, 2nd mate, 3rd mate and so-on.
It seemed necessary if breaking into the job, to effectively buy your way with a combination of passage and training into 5th or 6th mate, and generally each voyage (a voyage typically taking 2-3 years) you had a chance of climbing the ladder one rung. At about 3rd mate, the income started to catch up on the training debt, 2nd mates actually had spare money, and a captain needed 2-3 voyages (i.e. 6-10 years) to then retire comfortable for the rest of their lives.
Other specialist jobs (carpenters, traders, and so-on) had their own separate career structures, were cheaper to get into, but the rewards were lower as well.
Nothing like modern aviation at-all really
In the modern merchant navy, incidentally, I think it's a requirement - and has been for most of a century, that to fill a command position, you have to be qualified to do the job above you. So, a first mate has to hold a masters certificate, for example.
G
In the modern merchant navy, incidentally, I think it's a requirement - and has been for most of a century, that to fill a command position, you have to be qualified to do the job above you. So, a first mate has to hold a masters certificate, for example.
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The strange thing in the Merchant Navy is that title Captain (accepted practice to be used once you've held a command, not just on having a Master Mariners CoC), is held with pride and those that move ashore retain the title on business cards and official documents which increases respect for them amongst other MN Officers & Captains.
It's a shame that in the aviation industry it's belittled amongst people who choose to use it.
Back to the OP, does anyone have a background to the actual circumstances of what happened.
It's a shame that in the aviation industry it's belittled amongst people who choose to use it.
Back to the OP, does anyone have a background to the actual circumstances of what happened.
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I think the reason why pilot's are embarrassed to call themselves 'Captain' is because the title of 'Captain' is normally associated with naval and merchant officers who have spent years working with a company to earn their rank and their command. A sea-going Captain in the Royal Navy might command a warship and her crew of over 200 men. A sea-going Captain in the merchant fleets might command an oil tanker with her complement of maybe two dozen men. An airline Captain might command a Boeing with her crew of...er...? 
This post shouldn't be read as being detrimental to any pilots who use or have been awarded the title of 'Captain' by their line or company; I think everyone on this forum would be the first to agree that earning an ATPL or CPL is a great achievement, and is something that most, if not a great number of PPLs and NPPLs aspire to.
However, what I would like to discuss is whether we are captaining our vessels or are we piloting them? As Pilot's-in-Command we make command decisions that can either wreck or save the flight, and that in itself deserves accolade. Would we be less embarrassed to use our title if it wasn't equally used by a senior sea-going officer?
This post shouldn't be read as being detrimental to any pilots who use or have been awarded the title of 'Captain' by their line or company; I think everyone on this forum would be the first to agree that earning an ATPL or CPL is a great achievement, and is something that most, if not a great number of PPLs and NPPLs aspire to.
However, what I would like to discuss is whether we are captaining our vessels or are we piloting them? As Pilot's-in-Command we make command decisions that can either wreck or save the flight, and that in itself deserves accolade. Would we be less embarrassed to use our title if it wasn't equally used by a senior sea-going officer?
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I think all pilot's who are commander's of airliner's should be able to call themselve's captain.
Edit: smilies added for peter337's benefit
Edit: smilies added for peter337's benefit
Last edited by Cusco; 17th Dec 2011 at 22:50.
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