Loopy in a Tommie?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
From: New Zealand
Loopy in a Tommie?
Has anyone on the forum looped a PA38? Barrel rolled? etc.. in fact how LEGALLY aerobatic are they?
CAVEAT : no I'm not planning to go off and try this.. its idle curiousty,.... I'm far to much of a wimp to do this with out thorough instruction.
I recall tell of a mate doing some loops in a C150 (which nearly ended badly) anybody done any aerobatic manourvers in a standard GA spam can?
closest i got was a badly exectued wing drop stall that put me on my back that nearly put me off for life...
FK
CAVEAT : no I'm not planning to go off and try this.. its idle curiousty,.... I'm far to much of a wimp to do this with out thorough instruction.
I recall tell of a mate doing some loops in a C150 (which nearly ended badly) anybody done any aerobatic manourvers in a standard GA spam can?
closest i got was a badly exectued wing drop stall that put me on my back that nearly put me off for life...
FK
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 7,090
Likes: 2,952
From: Ontario, Canada
"owners" permission not good enough [as above post demonstrates]
One of the local flying clubs had a 152 Aerobat. It could only be taken solo in the circuit, so they could see that you weren't sneaking out of sight to experiment!
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 7,090
Likes: 2,952
From: Ontario, Canada
To say that I had done such things, could incite someone else, which I should not do. To say I had not, would be untruthful. I have extensive experience flying Tomahawks and quite like them.
I have never done aerobatics in an aircraft, which the owner had not approved of in advance. I received many hours of competent training in aerobatics in an Aerobat 150, from it's owner. He also demonstrated two very fine rolls to me, while I was a passenger in his C 185 amphibian.
I can say that I do occasionally loop and roll a standard C 150M, which I own, and is equipped with a G meter. I do this to maintain my proficiancy in handling unusual attitudes (necessary skill in my work). I have only once come close to exceeding a limitation (speed) while flying my 150, and I learned from it, and will never again.
During certification flight testing, and in accordance with the flight test plan, I spun a Lake Amphibian, with power. This, done to the right, results in more of a roll, than a spin. Though it worked fine, I consider this to not have an adequate margin of safety, and am unlikely to repeat it.
Competent aerobatic instruction is very worthwhile, and in appropriate aircraft, should be sought out by pilots. Casual/experimental aerobatics, particularly in aircraft for which such maneuvers are prohibited, are very high risk, and very unwise. Attempting to teach one's self aerobatics is very unwise.
With great care, and in accordance with an approved flight test plan, limitations are exceeded during testing, to assure margins of safety for careless pilots:
I have never done aerobatics in an aircraft, which the owner had not approved of in advance. I received many hours of competent training in aerobatics in an Aerobat 150, from it's owner. He also demonstrated two very fine rolls to me, while I was a passenger in his C 185 amphibian.
I can say that I do occasionally loop and roll a standard C 150M, which I own, and is equipped with a G meter. I do this to maintain my proficiancy in handling unusual attitudes (necessary skill in my work). I have only once come close to exceeding a limitation (speed) while flying my 150, and I learned from it, and will never again.
During certification flight testing, and in accordance with the flight test plan, I spun a Lake Amphibian, with power. This, done to the right, results in more of a roll, than a spin. Though it worked fine, I consider this to not have an adequate margin of safety, and am unlikely to repeat it.
Competent aerobatic instruction is very worthwhile, and in appropriate aircraft, should be sought out by pilots. Casual/experimental aerobatics, particularly in aircraft for which such maneuvers are prohibited, are very high risk, and very unwise. Attempting to teach one's self aerobatics is very unwise.
With great care, and in accordance with an approved flight test plan, limitations are exceeded during testing, to assure margins of safety for careless pilots:
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 1
From: Sydney
Beware: Aerobatics should only be done when both the aircraft and pilot are certified for them!
No placard, no "loopies"!!
"owners" permission not good enough [as above post demonstrates]
If you ever looked inside the structure of a PA38 you would see that it is NOT an aerobatic design!
No placard, no "loopies"!!
"owners" permission not good enough [as above post demonstrates]
If you ever looked inside the structure of a PA38 you would see that it is NOT an aerobatic design!
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 7,090
Likes: 2,952
From: Ontario, Canada
Backpacker has it right, particularly with respect to the roll, botching that is what's going to put you at extreme risk. Though the required limitations for Utility category do accommodate the basic aerobatic maneuvers when properly executed, some aircraft build up speed faster than others when you point them down.
The problem comes when you treat a "normal" category like a utility. Some of those types build up speed very quickly, and a Tomahawk for sure, when they are pointed down. The roll is extra dangerous this way, because unlike a loop, you are inverted at a much higher speed already, and you're accelerating from there.
A part of the certification is the test pilot's assessment of the margin available for recovery from an upset before you exceed a limitation. The following photo shows the "G" I pulled while recovering test spins in a Cessna Grand Caravan, at gross weight, forward C of G. (Aft C of G spins were very different!). Though the 3.8 G limit for the aircraft was not reached, (I only took it to 2.8 G during the recovery), that 2.8 G was reached at just about Vne, so there was very little left to play with before something was exceeded, and very little time to get it right. Without a G meter, that maneuver would have been extremely dangerous, as most pilots cannot sense G accurately, and blasting right past Vne while trying to not overstress would be the certain outcome. That is why the Caravan, like nearly all normal category aircraft is not spin approved. Not 'cause it won't recover form them, but because there is little margin for error.
This is the reason to not fool around with experimental aerobatics.
The problem comes when you treat a "normal" category like a utility. Some of those types build up speed very quickly, and a Tomahawk for sure, when they are pointed down. The roll is extra dangerous this way, because unlike a loop, you are inverted at a much higher speed already, and you're accelerating from there.
A part of the certification is the test pilot's assessment of the margin available for recovery from an upset before you exceed a limitation. The following photo shows the "G" I pulled while recovering test spins in a Cessna Grand Caravan, at gross weight, forward C of G. (Aft C of G spins were very different!). Though the 3.8 G limit for the aircraft was not reached, (I only took it to 2.8 G during the recovery), that 2.8 G was reached at just about Vne, so there was very little left to play with before something was exceeded, and very little time to get it right. Without a G meter, that maneuver would have been extremely dangerous, as most pilots cannot sense G accurately, and blasting right past Vne while trying to not overstress would be the certain outcome. That is why the Caravan, like nearly all normal category aircraft is not spin approved. Not 'cause it won't recover form them, but because there is little margin for error.
This is the reason to not fool around with experimental aerobatics.
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 7,090
Likes: 2,952
From: Ontario, Canada
Yup PPRuNe is getting things out of order still, and the photo in the wrong size! My second photo (Caravan) was saved to a very small file size before posting, but PPRuNe seems to be remembering the large file size I errantly posted first, and then edited to be smaller...
Gnome de PPRuNe
Joined: Jan 2002
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 15,200
Likes: 1,202
From: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Pilot Dar, there's been a problem with this all over PPRuNe... er, posting sequence issues I mean, not people looping Tomahawks!
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,077
Likes: 1
From: Oop North, UK
Hmmm, Anyone know why my original and subsequent posts appear out of chronological order?
On the subject of aeros in non cleared aircraft - DONT DO IT when I first learnt to fly I arrived at the club as they were returning from the funeral of a guy who had done aeros in a standard C150 and lost the wings. If you must practice loops and rolls for Unusual Attitudes practice(neither of which actually give you practice in this unless you get it wrong) you really should be doing it in an aeros aircraft.
If you have been put off aeros by a bad manouver come up to Ultimate High and we will be happy to give you a gentle intro and show you SAFELY how much fun they can be.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
From: Amsterdam
To add to the above posts:
I think it's possible to aerobat any aircraft that has a "U" category certification, since the majority of aerobatics maneuvers, up to standard level, can be done between -1 and +4G, with speeds well below Va.
HOWEVER
Sooner or later you will botch a maneuver and you will need to exceed "U" category limitations (either G-load, or speed), to recover. And then you'll find yourself with no safety margin whatsoever ("U" category limits, from memory, is 4.4G) and no G-meter to find out how close to the limit you actually are.
The most insidious of these is actually the barrel roll. A proper one can be executed with less than 2G and no height loss but if you don't balance roll and pitch against each other properly, you may find yourself inverted, nose down and building speed fast. In that situation it's very easy to exceed both speed and G limits simultaneously. Not to mention the 1000 feet or so you may need to recover.
So once again: Only perform aeros in an aircraft that's cleared for aeros, and fly the maneuvers according to the POH (particularly entry speeds). If you have no experience, get proper instruction.
I think it's possible to aerobat any aircraft that has a "U" category certification, since the majority of aerobatics maneuvers, up to standard level, can be done between -1 and +4G, with speeds well below Va.
HOWEVER
Sooner or later you will botch a maneuver and you will need to exceed "U" category limitations (either G-load, or speed), to recover. And then you'll find yourself with no safety margin whatsoever ("U" category limits, from memory, is 4.4G) and no G-meter to find out how close to the limit you actually are.
The most insidious of these is actually the barrel roll. A proper one can be executed with less than 2G and no height loss but if you don't balance roll and pitch against each other properly, you may find yourself inverted, nose down and building speed fast. In that situation it's very easy to exceed both speed and G limits simultaneously. Not to mention the 1000 feet or so you may need to recover.
So once again: Only perform aeros in an aircraft that's cleared for aeros, and fly the maneuvers according to the POH (particularly entry speeds). If you have no experience, get proper instruction.
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
From: Farm strip on the Fens in South Lincs
In the film Iron Eagle a Tomahawk was shown rolling.
Piper Tomahawk Barrel Roll.
Never fancied it myself when I owned my Tommy and watching the fin move significantly during a spin was enough for me!
Piper Tomahawk Barrel Roll.
Never fancied it myself when I owned my Tommy and watching the fin move significantly during a spin was enough for me!
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 649
Likes: 0
From: .
Interesting topic, the one that always comes to mind is Tex Whatshisface barrelling the 707 prototype. Fascinating but not for the average pilot to attempt. Also more than a little illegal.
The Tommys I fly have a big red placard in clear view stating "ALL AEROBATIC MANOEVERS STRICTLY PROHIBITED". Fair enough, I can take a hint when I'm given one...
Smithy
The Tommys I fly have a big red placard in clear view stating "ALL AEROBATIC MANOEVERS STRICTLY PROHIBITED". Fair enough, I can take a hint when I'm given one...
Smithy
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
From: New Zealand
Ok i knew this may have incited a few responses like this, i was not trolling at all!
The Tommie is not placarded for anything other than flaps up spins, hence my question.
I would never-ever-ever perform any aerobatic maneuver in an aircraft unless it was in the right category and i had been instructed thoroughly in the maneuver.
I have chandelled and looped gliders before and i'm aware of what can go wrong with the maneuvers, i imagine the energy which could build up in a powered aircraft would be substantial enough to be structurally unwise :-)
I have flown the tommie as my primary aircraft in training and after my PPL and i know how quickly it can pick up speed!
Sincerely chaps i was not seeking advice for sneaky loops in a club aircraft
As usual some very helpful and informative replies- and if you watch that Iron Eagle Vid you'll see the tommie nearly falls out of the sky at the bottom of the roll!
The Tommie is not placarded for anything other than flaps up spins, hence my question.
I would never-ever-ever perform any aerobatic maneuver in an aircraft unless it was in the right category and i had been instructed thoroughly in the maneuver.
I have chandelled and looped gliders before and i'm aware of what can go wrong with the maneuvers, i imagine the energy which could build up in a powered aircraft would be substantial enough to be structurally unwise :-)
I have flown the tommie as my primary aircraft in training and after my PPL and i know how quickly it can pick up speed!
Sincerely chaps i was not seeking advice for sneaky loops in a club aircraft
As usual some very helpful and informative replies- and if you watch that Iron Eagle Vid you'll see the tommie nearly falls out of the sky at the bottom of the roll!
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,658
Likes: 501
From: Canada
Ok i knew this may have incited a few responses like this, i was not trolling at all!
The Tommie is not placarded for anything other than flaps up spins, hence my question.
I would never-ever-ever perform any aerobatic maneuver in an aircraft unless it was in the right category and i had been instructed thoroughly in the maneuver.
I have chandelled and looped gliders before and i'm aware of what can go wrong with the maneuvers, i imagine the energy which could build up in a powered aircraft would be substantial enough to be structurally unwise :-)
I have flown the tommie as my primary aircraft in training and after my PPL and i know how quickly it can pick up speed!
Sincerely chaps i was not seeking advice for sneaky loops in a club aircraft
As usual some very helpful and informative replies- and if you watch that Iron Eagle Vid you'll see the tommie nearly falls out of the sky at the bottom of the roll!
The Tommie is not placarded for anything other than flaps up spins, hence my question.
I would never-ever-ever perform any aerobatic maneuver in an aircraft unless it was in the right category and i had been instructed thoroughly in the maneuver.
I have chandelled and looped gliders before and i'm aware of what can go wrong with the maneuvers, i imagine the energy which could build up in a powered aircraft would be substantial enough to be structurally unwise :-)
I have flown the tommie as my primary aircraft in training and after my PPL and i know how quickly it can pick up speed!
Sincerely chaps i was not seeking advice for sneaky loops in a club aircraft
As usual some very helpful and informative replies- and if you watch that Iron Eagle Vid you'll see the tommie nearly falls out of the sky at the bottom of the roll!
Have people done loops and rolls in a Tommie, YES. Did it prove anything other than they were stupid, NO.......so what is the point of the question ?
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
Likes: 1
The likely hood is it won't even kill the person that did loop it.
It will be some poor sod in the future that things may fail when they least expect them.
And I am sure someone has looped a tommy and lived to tell the tale
It will be some poor sod in the future that things may fail when they least expect them.
And I am sure someone has looped a tommy and lived to tell the tale
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,077
Likes: 1
From: Oop North, UK
Can it even be done?
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: Sunny Cotswolds
Hmm
I rolled one in the early 90's but made it barrelly to avoid any negative g - not recommended as the T tail makes for difficult recovery from any problems plus its a bit fragile back there. Are there any left will be the next question as they're all time lifed if I remember correctly