Formation Flying
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5,658
Likes: 501
From: Canada
This is a general comment not aimed at any particular poster.
Formation flying requires a complete and comprehensive training program in order to do it safely. Mine consisted of an initial 10 hours of dual provide by an X Military QFI and Snowbird Air demonstration team member. After that I did many hours of practice with a very experienced lead. With about 160 hours of form experience I now consider myself a reasonably competent formation pilot.
You Can Not teach yourself how to fly formation yourself and to attempt to do so is very dangerous. I am very careful who I fly formation with and will not fly with a pilot I do not know without a recommendation from a trusted source.
Formation flying requires a complete and comprehensive training program in order to do it safely. Mine consisted of an initial 10 hours of dual provide by an X Military QFI and Snowbird Air demonstration team member. After that I did many hours of practice with a very experienced lead. With about 160 hours of form experience I now consider myself a reasonably competent formation pilot.
You Can Not teach yourself how to fly formation yourself and to attempt to do so is very dangerous. I am very careful who I fly formation with and will not fly with a pilot I do not know without a recommendation from a trusted source.
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 14,480
Likes: 178
From: UK
I do agree with Big Pistons - it's a very risky endeavour that needs to be under the eye of a grown-up. Better still, a current grown-up; I once got this wrong and nearly got written off by an arrogant **** with 10,000+ hours monitoring an autopilot, who told me how good he was and listed his extensive formation experience, but neglected to mention that the last time he'd done any was about 30 years previously.
I had a similar introduction to him - 10+ hours with an ex RAF instructor and then another few tens of hours practicing with him. I'd love to say that I have the 160 hours subsequent experience - which I don't. I'm now a few years out of practice and about to start in again, but will be using 10++ hours carefully and iterative workup with somebody I trust before getting at-all close in formation again.
SMAZ - try asking up the road at Thruxton. There are at-least two very experienced ex-military instructors teaching there, and I believe that one of them used to regularly lead formation exercises using their fleet of PA38s. I don't know if they still do or not, but it's worth asking.
G
I had a similar introduction to him - 10+ hours with an ex RAF instructor and then another few tens of hours practicing with him. I'd love to say that I have the 160 hours subsequent experience - which I don't. I'm now a few years out of practice and about to start in again, but will be using 10++ hours carefully and iterative workup with somebody I trust before getting at-all close in formation again.
SMAZ - try asking up the road at Thruxton. There are at-least two very experienced ex-military instructors teaching there, and I believe that one of them used to regularly lead formation exercises using their fleet of PA38s. I don't know if they still do or not, but it's worth asking.
G
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,077
Likes: 1
From: Oop North, UK
Well, for formation instruction I would again recommend Ultimate High at Kemble, mainly ex military instructors and they do regular formation courses - but I refrained from posting this earlier having noticed SMAZ's location - Odiham, so I suspect he may already have the required knowledge.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,115
Likes: 1,091
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Odiham = military helicopter base with pilots trained to routinely fly in formations.
Having said that (from knowledge gained flying and teaching in both) there are some differences between rotary and fixed wing procedures.
Having said that (from knowledge gained flying and teaching in both) there are some differences between rotary and fixed wing procedures.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
I would not wish to argue with the esteemed members of HM's finest Royal Air Force, but there is surely a difference between flying a formation with the wingtips practically touching (the kind of stuff which is done for magazine front covers), and flying a few hundred feet apart when quite reasonable pics can be obtained.
The latter obviously still needs careful organisation so one aircraft reaches a waypoint and loiters there at an agreed altitude, and then the other one departs and reaches it 500ft lower down, after which one can depart along an agreed track, sits there on autopilot, and the other one climbs up and does a flypast.
The camera is on the first one (the one on autopilot).
In the simplest case, the plane doing the flypast needs to do the flypast to the north of the camera plane so you use the light to your advantage.
The result is not magazine cover stuff but is very adequate (example example) and would have been better with a decent camera; these were taken with a 3PM stills mode of a camcorder.
The latter obviously still needs careful organisation so one aircraft reaches a waypoint and loiters there at an agreed altitude, and then the other one departs and reaches it 500ft lower down, after which one can depart along an agreed track, sits there on autopilot, and the other one climbs up and does a flypast.
The camera is on the first one (the one on autopilot).
In the simplest case, the plane doing the flypast needs to do the flypast to the north of the camera plane so you use the light to your advantage.
The result is not magazine cover stuff but is very adequate (example example) and would have been better with a decent camera; these were taken with a 3PM stills mode of a camcorder.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
From: around
The problem is that flying further apart means that larger relative velocities can build up before they're detectable. If you're not on the ball, you can end up scaring yourself much more easily. Bizarrely, I found (in close formation) it's easier being tighter than loose, where you can find yourself being whipped about on the end of the imaginary elastic string more. Of course, being more than a couple of hundred yards out isn't really 'formation' in the strictest sense...
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 7,089
Likes: 2,952
From: Ontario, Canada
I completely agree with Big Pistons on this. I had the great fortune to have been mentored through this challenging learning curve by a former Red Arrows team leader. Competent instruction, briefing, and practice is vital.
My experience certainly supports Anonystude's thoughts as well. My friend and I used to fly the Ercoupe and Tomahawk around for hours with one wingtip trialing the other's by 10 feet, and with practice, it was easier than being further away. This was done after LOTS of training, and progressively closer practice - and a lot of trust in the other pilot.
My experience certainly supports Anonystude's thoughts as well. My friend and I used to fly the Ercoupe and Tomahawk around for hours with one wingtip trialing the other's by 10 feet, and with practice, it was easier than being further away. This was done after LOTS of training, and progressively closer practice - and a lot of trust in the other pilot.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 3,077
Likes: 1
From: Oop North, UK
but there is surely a difference between flying a formation with the wingtips practically touching (the kind of stuff which is done for magazine front covers), and flying a few hundred feet apart when quite reasonable pics can be obtained.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,934
Likes: 0
From: The Twilight Zone near 30W
For Yak and Extra owners, for several years there has been the North Weald Formation School which is staffed for the week by very experienced military and ex-military instructors. There is also a spin-off course for RV owners run by a regular PPrune poster.
I would also suggest Ultimate High as a good source of quality instruction. There is some overlap in terms of that instruction with the North Weald course.
Alternatively, the OP may already know some people from a suitable instructional background. Either way, it is essential to get proper instruction before attempting formation flying.
Forward. Up. In. Always have an escape route.
I would also suggest Ultimate High as a good source of quality instruction. There is some overlap in terms of that instruction with the North Weald course.
Alternatively, the OP may already know some people from a suitable instructional background. Either way, it is essential to get proper instruction before attempting formation flying.
Forward. Up. In. Always have an escape route.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,115
Likes: 1,091
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
I would not wish to argue with the esteemed members of HM's finest Royal Air Force, but there is surely a difference between flying a formation with the wingtips practically touching (the kind of stuff which is done for magazine front covers), and flying a few hundred feet apart when quite reasonable pics can be obtained.
Even so, it needs to be properly briefed and organised. Aircraft seldom have accidents when actually flying in formation, but rather when joining up or breaking away from each other.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,366
Likes: 0
From: UK
Aircraft seldom have accidents when actually flying in formation, but rather when joining up or breaking away from each other.
I know a few guys who used to formate without a proper briefing, often attempting formation take offs. It really isn't worth the risk. If you're serious about formation flying, seek proper instruction from guys who know what they're doing, don't treat it as something you can teach yourself.
