What's the robin like to fly?
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What's the robin like to fly?
Hi all,
Anyone flown a robin?
I've heard they are rubbish?
Personal opinion I gues?
I have the option to checkout on robin or piper warrior not sure which to go for
Any advice?
Anyone flown a robin?
I've heard they are rubbish?
Personal opinion I gues?
I have the option to checkout on robin or piper warrior not sure which to go for
Any advice?
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A PA28 is something you sit in, like an airliner. A Robin is an aircraft you wear. At least, that's what it feels to me like. I like them a lot.
As far as the DR400 series (the most common ones) is concerned:
Pro:
- Visibility is excellent, far better than a PA28
- The Robins I fly all have a decent and logically laid out (VFR) instrument panel, to a large extent unmodified from the factory. The PA28s our club owns all have a long and different history, with multiple upgrades during their lifetime, leading to an inconstent layout with knobs, buttons and instruments all over the place.
- The 160 HP or more versions have very decent lifting capacity. But the sub-160 HP versions, including the Mk. 1 135 HP TDI Ecoflyer, are really only 2+2 (2 adults, 2 kids). (I understand the 155 HP Ecoflyer, with the 2.0s engine, is also a good hauler, but I have never flown that one.)
- The versions with the saddle tanks give you 190 liters of fuel capacity - which is bladder bursting endurance. Although take care with the fuel selector. The one we have requires you to set the fuel selector pointer rearwards for the main/center tank, and forward for Off. Not a good design.
- Very benign handling at all speeds including the stall.
- Stick instead of a yoke.
Cons:
- Wings consist of a wooden spar and cloth. This requires that they are stored in a hangar, and the wing surface is relatively vulnerable to people stepping on them, items being dropped on them and so forth.
- The seats not only slide backwards and forwards, but in the most rearward position also tilt backwards a bit. In the most rearward position (the one I use) this gets uncomfortable after two hours.
- When entering/leaving the aircraft, especially if you are going into the back, the natural point to grab is the top of the canopy, but this is not strong enough to support your weight. So be careful to brief your passengers about this.
- Slightly less roomier inside compared to a PA28.
- Only a minority of Robins seem to be equipped to IFR standards, most seem to be VFR or NVFR only. For PA28s this seems to be the other way around.
- The stick gets in the way if you're using large kneeboards.
- The lock mechanism is on top of the fuselage and collects water. For most Robins this means that after a while you cannot lock them anymore with a key due to the rust inside the lock mechanism. This might be relevant on a fly-out of some sort where the aircraft has to spend the night outside at an unsecured field.
- The Robin factory seems to be going through an endless cycle of bankruptcy/acquisition/investment. This means that there are periods where factory support (spares, ADs, SBs, ...) is minimal to nonexistent.
(And I'm leaving now to thrown the Robin R2160 around the sky...
)
As far as the DR400 series (the most common ones) is concerned:
Pro:
- Visibility is excellent, far better than a PA28
- The Robins I fly all have a decent and logically laid out (VFR) instrument panel, to a large extent unmodified from the factory. The PA28s our club owns all have a long and different history, with multiple upgrades during their lifetime, leading to an inconstent layout with knobs, buttons and instruments all over the place.
- The 160 HP or more versions have very decent lifting capacity. But the sub-160 HP versions, including the Mk. 1 135 HP TDI Ecoflyer, are really only 2+2 (2 adults, 2 kids). (I understand the 155 HP Ecoflyer, with the 2.0s engine, is also a good hauler, but I have never flown that one.)
- The versions with the saddle tanks give you 190 liters of fuel capacity - which is bladder bursting endurance. Although take care with the fuel selector. The one we have requires you to set the fuel selector pointer rearwards for the main/center tank, and forward for Off. Not a good design.
- Very benign handling at all speeds including the stall.
- Stick instead of a yoke.
Cons:
- Wings consist of a wooden spar and cloth. This requires that they are stored in a hangar, and the wing surface is relatively vulnerable to people stepping on them, items being dropped on them and so forth.
- The seats not only slide backwards and forwards, but in the most rearward position also tilt backwards a bit. In the most rearward position (the one I use) this gets uncomfortable after two hours.
- When entering/leaving the aircraft, especially if you are going into the back, the natural point to grab is the top of the canopy, but this is not strong enough to support your weight. So be careful to brief your passengers about this.
- Slightly less roomier inside compared to a PA28.
- Only a minority of Robins seem to be equipped to IFR standards, most seem to be VFR or NVFR only. For PA28s this seems to be the other way around.
- The stick gets in the way if you're using large kneeboards.
- The lock mechanism is on top of the fuselage and collects water. For most Robins this means that after a while you cannot lock them anymore with a key due to the rust inside the lock mechanism. This might be relevant on a fly-out of some sort where the aircraft has to spend the night outside at an unsecured field.
- The Robin factory seems to be going through an endless cycle of bankruptcy/acquisition/investment. This means that there are periods where factory support (spares, ADs, SBs, ...) is minimal to nonexistent.
(And I'm leaving now to thrown the Robin R2160 around the sky...
)
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Don't know anything about the 400 but I'm learning in a 200 and, whilst I don't really have anything to compare it to, love being up and about in it 
I asked a few places including here and the 200 came highly recommended!
I asked a few places including here and the 200 came highly recommended!
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The Robin DR400/160 is a great aircraft. I come from a background of Archers and Arrows and much prefer the Robin I've been flying for the last 4 years.
Visibility is second to none, I would say actually roomier than a PA28 (maybe just feels less claustraphobic) and being wood fabric constuction gives a great power/weight ratio. I recently went to L2K with 4 adults and bags etc on board with no problem at all.
They also have a slightly higher cruise speed than the standard PA28 (trim out at 115-120kts). They do need to be hangared, but if this is possible I would not hesitate.
Visibility is second to none, I would say actually roomier than a PA28 (maybe just feels less claustraphobic) and being wood fabric constuction gives a great power/weight ratio. I recently went to L2K with 4 adults and bags etc on board with no problem at all.
They also have a slightly higher cruise speed than the standard PA28 (trim out at 115-120kts). They do need to be hangared, but if this is possible I would not hesitate.
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Brilliant thanks people I think I have now decided the robin it is! I think Its the 400-160 so sounds like the better one
Not sure about using a stick instead of yoke? How is that to get used to?
Not sure about using a stick instead of yoke? How is that to get used to?
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Although the robin has a stick, it behaves just like a yoke.
A proper stick (eg bulldog, chipmunk, firefly, tutor) comes up from the floor, giving you full motion left and right to do aerobatics.
The stick in the robin comes out of the dash, just like a yoke, and just twists left to right. If you're used to either stick or yoke you shouldn't really struggle.
The vis is very good, reasonably nice to tour in, but usually not much in the way of avionics if you want to do some serious nav.
A proper stick (eg bulldog, chipmunk, firefly, tutor) comes up from the floor, giving you full motion left and right to do aerobatics.
The stick in the robin comes out of the dash, just like a yoke, and just twists left to right. If you're used to either stick or yoke you shouldn't really struggle.
The vis is very good, reasonably nice to tour in, but usually not much in the way of avionics if you want to do some serious nav.
A Robin is basically a Jodel with a trainer wheel. Pleasant to fly, docile, reasonably light on the controls, needs to live in a hangar for longevity. The standard french trainer and tourer, but the low powered versions can eat a lot of runway with the coarse pitch prop. Better for short pilots than most american offerings, and plenty of legroom in the back. The sliding canopy is good for easy access but the cabin gets a bit too warm in hot sunny weather. Personally I like all the 400 series, but try it and see what you think. Stick or yoke, they are all pull for up, push for down.......
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The stick in the DR400/160 almost comes out of the floor - it twists a little to come out of the centre console, unlike the yoke-like stick fitted to some of the range. Like any other stick to use, fly it with fingertips, and accept that the forces are reasonably high. Nice aircraft to fly though, I enjoy flying & instructing in them more than in a Piper!
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I was very fortunate to have had 2 years flying a DR500, prior to that I had flown 4 club PA28's. In my humble opinion the Robin was in a different league.
It couldn't carry as much as the arrow, from memory, I think the best cruise was a few knots slower than the latter, but for me the Robin was absolutely superb and I miss it, wouldn't say that about any of the 28's.
It couldn't carry as much as the arrow, from memory, I think the best cruise was a few knots slower than the latter, but for me the Robin was absolutely superb
and I miss it, wouldn't say that about any of the 28's.
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Brill, thanks people ill go have a look at airfield over the weekend and have a sit in to see how it feels... I may just give the "stick" a go to see how it feels
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I have only flown the Robin Dr200-100 and loved it. Compared to the solid and pedestrian PA28 (which I like very much) it is far nicer to fly. It has a stick instaed of a clumsy yoke and thinks it is a Spitfire in the air. With a built-in shimmy on the noseleg, steering by brakes and a drop-lock nosewheel on the ground it handles like a camel on castors but the flying more than makes up for that. A shimmy on take off (few take offs didn't) could let the nosewheel drop into its lock while pointing sideways which you wouldn't discover until the following landing. If you didn't plop the nosewheel down positively thus unlocking it quickly you could find yourself taking an unplanned cross-country excursion, a glitch readily circumvented by correct technique. Visibility from that big bubble canopy is superb. I don't think it is as sophisticated in design as the Piper and probably not as durable but as a flying machine imho it wins hands down.
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If you didn't plop the nosewheel down positively thus unlocking it quickly you could find yourself taking an unplanned cross-country excursion, a glitch readily circumvented by correct technique.
Oh, and I found yet another small disadvantage vs. the PA28: The main tank cannot be dipped (*) so you have to rely on the fuel gauge to know what's in there. The saddle tanks could possibly be dipped but I've never seen a dipstick calibrated for those.
(*) I have heard once that there was some sort of contraption that supposedly allows you to dip the center tank, but I have never seen it.
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Robin DR400
A lot of good stuff above thanks largely to backpacker but to add to this I would say is that the Robin exhibits a few differences form the average SEP.
The outer section of the wing is washed out to a zero A of A when the aircraft is in the cruise, this is part of the reason the aircraft is particularly slippery as the ourt section of wing acts to reduce the induced drag. This makes the aircraft reluctant to slow. At about 70 kt the increase in A of A will result in the outer wings starting to produce lift and as a result drag, this can be a trap for young players as the reluctance to slow is now replaces by rapidly increasing drag as the aircraft slows further, the speed will bleed of quickly surprising those who have not been keeping a sharp eye on the airspeed.
I always demonstrate the power needed to maintain level flight at 80, 70, 65, 60 & 55kts this demo clearly shows the power required to overcome the drag.
Problems with the nose wheel steering that have been highlighted in posts above are due to poor maintenance of the shock strut oil/air level and pressure, given the poor standard to the early editions of the maintenance manual there was some excuse for this but the latest edition of the manual gives crystal clear guidance on the subject and so these problems should be a thing of the past.
The outer section of the wing is washed out to a zero A of A when the aircraft is in the cruise, this is part of the reason the aircraft is particularly slippery as the ourt section of wing acts to reduce the induced drag. This makes the aircraft reluctant to slow. At about 70 kt the increase in A of A will result in the outer wings starting to produce lift and as a result drag, this can be a trap for young players as the reluctance to slow is now replaces by rapidly increasing drag as the aircraft slows further, the speed will bleed of quickly surprising those who have not been keeping a sharp eye on the airspeed.
I always demonstrate the power needed to maintain level flight at 80, 70, 65, 60 & 55kts this demo clearly shows the power required to overcome the drag.
Problems with the nose wheel steering that have been highlighted in posts above are due to poor maintenance of the shock strut oil/air level and pressure, given the poor standard to the early editions of the maintenance manual there was some excuse for this but the latest edition of the manual gives crystal clear guidance on the subject and so these problems should be a thing of the past.
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Ive heard robins are rubbish !
An interesting statement after all the Robin will lift a greater payload off a shorter runway, cruise faster and fly further than a PA28 fitted with the same engine.
If that is rubbish I will fly the rubbish aircraft any day !
If that is rubbish I will fly the rubbish aircraft any day !
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Haha yeah and I'm gonIng to fly some rubbish next week!
It was just someone I knew who thought they were rubbish and cheaply made but to be fair he was a Cessna man all the way (anything non Cessna is rubbish to him).
That's why I posted the question but I have had so many positive comments I've booked in.
Thanks everyone I'll post back when I've been up
It was just someone I knew who thought they were rubbish and cheaply made but to be fair he was a Cessna man all the way (anything non Cessna is rubbish to him).
That's why I posted the question but I have had so many positive comments I've booked in.
Thanks everyone I'll post back when I've been up
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You will either love them or hate them.
I love them, especially the tailwheel versions that lift more on a smaller engine.
I still cannot understand why anyone would want to fly a PA28 or C172.
I love them, especially the tailwheel versions that lift more on a smaller engine.
I still cannot understand why anyone would want to fly a PA28 or C172.