Propeller Striking Passenger Exiting Piper Tomahawk
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double danger
On a related thread the Cessna 337 Skymaster with props front and rear offers a double hazard. I seem to recall that there was a tragic accident many years ago where one of the passengers on a 337 for reasons I cannot recall exited the a/c while engines were running and was beleived to have assumed it was safe to cross to the rear - and walked straight into the spinning prop.
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On a few occasions I have been in the left hand seat, with the engine on idle, while an instructor or fellow pilot have got it. I guess for me, I considered this to be acceptable as instructors have done this (as IO540 mentions when doing solo's etc). However, its one thing when the person getting in and out is a fellow pilot and is very familiar with the dangers, and has the sense to make sure they exit behind a wing or any object that could hit them if the brakes became free, and another allowing a non-pilot with no aircraft experience to do so.
A very unfortunate accident, and something which in hindsight makes one think about any future change overs with a idle engine.
A very unfortunate accident, and something which in hindsight makes one think about any future change overs with a idle engine.
re the original headline: I would suggest that the universal SOP is a non pilot passenger should never get out of an aircraft with the engine running and if a pilot is going to get out of a passenger seat with the engine running then the PIC would brief the pilot passenger so everyone understood what actions he would expect the pilot passenger to do including making sure none of the seat belts got left outside and he would close the door with the PIC responsible for locking it, and finally the passenger would exit out and to the back and give a thumbs up when he was clear and it was safe for the aircraft to manoever
With respect to the electrical issues which are also being discussed, I have never seen a C 150/152 with a "starter engaged" warning light. Is this a UK unique requirement ?
Finally I miss read the original post and thought he was talking about a C 152. The later 1982 and up vintage C 152's have a low voltage light but No C 150 ever came from the factory with one.
However the 1970's vintage L and M model C 150's do have an "over voltage" light. This is connected to a over voltage sensor which, in the event of an over voltage condition being detected, will automatically disconnect the alternator from the electrical system, by removing the field current. The electrical system will now be powered only by the battery. Illumination of the light indicates the over voltage sensor has activated. Of note the charging system can fail without the light illuminating, if for example the alternator were itself to stop producing current, The only sure way to know that the electrical system is functioning correctly is to monitor the ammeter.
With respect to the electrical issues which are also being discussed, I have never seen a C 150/152 with a "starter engaged" warning light. Is this a UK unique requirement ?
Finally I miss read the original post and thought he was talking about a C 152. The later 1982 and up vintage C 152's have a low voltage light but No C 150 ever came from the factory with one.
However the 1970's vintage L and M model C 150's do have an "over voltage" light. This is connected to a over voltage sensor which, in the event of an over voltage condition being detected, will automatically disconnect the alternator from the electrical system, by removing the field current. The electrical system will now be powered only by the battery. Illumination of the light indicates the over voltage sensor has activated. Of note the charging system can fail without the light illuminating, if for example the alternator were itself to stop producing current, The only sure way to know that the electrical system is functioning correctly is to monitor the ammeter.
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I am racking my brains on that one BPF.
I suspect that and the low voltage light have been a compulsory ADD for some 11 years now. I am sure A and C can confirm or say I am talking rubbish. They have always both looked like an addition in all light aircraft I flown on G reg. The N reg ones I have flown haven't had either.
And as for walking forward in a tommy the door would get in the way for a start you would struggle to get round it with the prop wash even if at idle so something smells fishy to me anyway.
I suspect that and the low voltage light have been a compulsory ADD for some 11 years now. I am sure A and C can confirm or say I am talking rubbish. They have always both looked like an addition in all light aircraft I flown on G reg. The N reg ones I have flown haven't had either.
And as for walking forward in a tommy the door would get in the way for a start you would struggle to get round it with the prop wash even if at idle so something smells fishy to me anyway.
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With respect to the electrical issues which are also being discussed, I have never seen a C 150/152 with a "starter engaged" warning light. Is this a UK unique requirement ?
You end up with 3 lights - one for starter engage, one showing the alternator isn't working and one showing low bus voltage.
And as for walking forward in a tommy the door would get in the way for a start you would struggle to get round it with the prop wash even if at idle so something smells fishy to me anyway.
If they were in a hurry, it wouldn't of helped. Not being too experienced probably means everything was done relatively slowly and from the checklist which may mean they didn't want to go through all the faff of getting the thing going again. A tommy restart is simply mixture rich, throttle crack, master switch on, turn the key, not the 50 or so checks listed.
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Would it be a sensible assumption that the pilot and the passenger were in a rush?
Yet another opportunity for accident avoidance? If I find myself getting into a rush around aeroplanes I quite deliberately stop, calm down, think, and go back a few steps in case I've missed something.
I've never yet got to the point of deciding "I'm not in the right mood for this, I'm going home" but I've heard of other people doing it and I'm aware it's an option.
A tommy restart is simply mixture rich, throttle crack, master switch on, turn the key, not the 50 or so checks listed.
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Agreed, but I'm assuming they shut the door first and then stepped off the front of the wing. How you wouldn't notice the spinning prop is beyond me.
If you stayed on the black walkway you would be inside the prop disk, you wouldn't just get your arm taken off. You would needed to have headed out from the door at 30degrees plus.
Personally I think the PAX is at it for the insurance claim. Either that or Darwin is at work.
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The more I hear about it, the more I think old Ted Smith was right when he designed the Aerostar; One of the big gripes about that airplane is that the entry to the cabin is via the pilots door with the pilot's seat slid back, but I bet nobody has walked out onto a spinning prop in that aircraft and hurt themselves.
Also baffled as to how one might not be viscerally aware of a turning propeller.
Perhaps if there was a nearby plane going full-throttle as a distraction, it would be easier to neglect the fact that your own aeroplane was making an engine-noise and spinning blades on the front.
It would be an odd sort of a scam, but there is a precedent:
2002 Darwin Award: Chainsaw Insurance
Perhaps if there was a nearby plane going full-throttle as a distraction, it would be easier to neglect the fact that your own aeroplane was making an engine-noise and spinning blades on the front.
It would be an odd sort of a scam, but there is a precedent:
2002 Darwin Award: Chainsaw Insurance
The more I hear about it, the more I think old Ted Smith was right when he designed the Aerostar; One of the big gripes about that airplane is that the entry to the cabin is via the pilots door with the pilot's seat slid back, but I bet nobody has walked out onto a spinning prop in that aircraft and hurt themselves.
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"First flight in a light aircraft..."
It appears the pax briefing, if any, was not understood or retained by the pax for it to be functional. The pilot wasn't aware (enough) and the pax wasn't effectively briefed (enough).
It can also happen to the most experienced; a story was told to me years ago of a jackaroo who used to be a regular spotter in a Bell 47G during mustering. The heli pilot and jackaroo had flown together quite a lot and the latter had been told when he exited the RHS of the heli he had to walk forward away from the rotor blades each time so the pilot knew he was out of danger from the tail rotor. The two regularly flew together and this became a matter of routine for them both. But on one occasion they were mustering in a fixed wing and after landing the same jackaroo exited the RHS and, you guessed it, walked forward straight into the spinning propeller. If I was told how it all ended up I have long since forgotten but my point is pax are the innocent and ignorant parties; nothing is to be assumed.
It appears the pax briefing, if any, was not understood or retained by the pax for it to be functional. The pilot wasn't aware (enough) and the pax wasn't effectively briefed (enough).
It can also happen to the most experienced; a story was told to me years ago of a jackaroo who used to be a regular spotter in a Bell 47G during mustering. The heli pilot and jackaroo had flown together quite a lot and the latter had been told when he exited the RHS of the heli he had to walk forward away from the rotor blades each time so the pilot knew he was out of danger from the tail rotor. The two regularly flew together and this became a matter of routine for them both. But on one occasion they were mustering in a fixed wing and after landing the same jackaroo exited the RHS and, you guessed it, walked forward straight into the spinning propeller. If I was told how it all ended up I have long since forgotten but my point is pax are the innocent and ignorant parties; nothing is to be assumed.
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Originally Posted by abgd
Also baffled as to how one might not be viscerally aware of a turning propeller.
Having held a PPL for a number of years I would hope I was aware of propellors.
I was at the launch point at a gliding club, waiting to "run wing" for an aerotow launch, when another glider landed and blocked the runway.
While waiting for the other glider to be moved I was chatting to the tug (Super Cub) pilot (tug engine running). I was standing just in front of the strut as it was the easiest place to stand to get my head close to his - made necessary because of the engine noise. After a couple of minutes the tug pilot asked me to check progress on the runway ...
To this day I don't know, if the tug pilot had not grabbed my arm, whether I would have walked through the prop disc. Still makes me go cold thinking about it.
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"First flight in a light aircraft", pretty much says it all. A totally unknowledgeable young woman, completely oblivious to the method of operation of mechanical devices, steps out onto the wing, totally focussed on going to the control tower, which she can see directly ahead, to get her forgotten headset. The spinning prop would not even have registered with her.
Add in the common failure of many younger people to not listen properly, to what was said by the pilot, and this was an accident that was sure to happen.
Possibly an additional factor was impetuousness, also a common fault in many younger people.
What the pilot failed to do was to fully and thoroughly impress upon the passenger, the extreme danger posed by the rotating propellor.
It's a danger easy enough to envisage to anyone with mechanical knowledge, but not to a person who has never been around anything mechanical.
The pilot was possibly also struggling with the many tasks required on takeoff, as a low hour pilot, with only 2 hrs logged in the previous 90 days, and 144 hrs in total on type, and failed to place a high priority on passenger education.
The passenger survived, she had her arm sewn back on in a 10 hr operation.
Warning to pilots after woman struck by propeller at RAF Henlow - News - The Comet
Add in the common failure of many younger people to not listen properly, to what was said by the pilot, and this was an accident that was sure to happen.
Possibly an additional factor was impetuousness, also a common fault in many younger people.
What the pilot failed to do was to fully and thoroughly impress upon the passenger, the extreme danger posed by the rotating propellor.
It's a danger easy enough to envisage to anyone with mechanical knowledge, but not to a person who has never been around anything mechanical.
The pilot was possibly also struggling with the many tasks required on takeoff, as a low hour pilot, with only 2 hrs logged in the previous 90 days, and 144 hrs in total on type, and failed to place a high priority on passenger education.
The passenger survived, she had her arm sewn back on in a 10 hr operation.
Warning to pilots after woman struck by propeller at RAF Henlow - News - The Comet
Another relevant point is that pilots are not nearly as "propeller aware" as they were in the days when we had to hand swing aircraft and pull the prop through a few times to "suck in" as in DH Gypsy Major engine etc.
Students would have to be checked out on "hand swinging" - this made one very aware of the hazards!
When you have someone involved who is not "aircraft aware" you have to do all the thinking for them. As an instructor there is no way I would have let a person whose flight was the first in a light a/c enter and/or exit with the prop running.
The responsibility for this sad mishap rests squarely with the pilot although I would also be looking at the training she received as a significant factor.
Students would have to be checked out on "hand swinging" - this made one very aware of the hazards!
When you have someone involved who is not "aircraft aware" you have to do all the thinking for them. As an instructor there is no way I would have let a person whose flight was the first in a light a/c enter and/or exit with the prop running.
The responsibility for this sad mishap rests squarely with the pilot although I would also be looking at the training she received as a significant factor.
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A gruesome incident with thankfully a lucky ending for the passenger, could have been much much worse!
Have always been aware of the dangers of props, always remember the unsubtle posters at airfields when I was in the Air Cadets warning of the dangers, that and common sense telling me that a whopping great metal thing spinning at 2500rpm is to be treated with some tactful caution & respect.
Smithy
Have always been aware of the dangers of props, always remember the unsubtle posters at airfields when I was in the Air Cadets warning of the dangers, that and common sense telling me that a whopping great metal thing spinning at 2500rpm is to be treated with some tactful caution & respect.
Smithy
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To this day I don't know, if the tug pilot had not grabbed my arm, whether I would have walked through the prop disc. Still makes me go cold thinking about it.
OC619
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Having watched a young girl walk through a propellor arc all I can say it can happen, has happened and probably will happen again. We should discount the female pax coincidence.
I can recall the sound of metal and bone as if it was yesterday. I can also see the anguish on the pilots face straight after.
It must be some sort of human factor that differentiates between passengers and pilots I think.
The C337 tragedy happened at Liverpool many years ago when confusion between the pilot and marshaller resulted in the pax offering to go speak to him. She was both cabin crew and girlfriend of the pilot and I think it was the front engine's prop she walked into.
SGC
I can recall the sound of metal and bone as if it was yesterday. I can also see the anguish on the pilots face straight after.
It must be some sort of human factor that differentiates between passengers and pilots I think.
The C337 tragedy happened at Liverpool many years ago when confusion between the pilot and marshaller resulted in the pax offering to go speak to him. She was both cabin crew and girlfriend of the pilot and I think it was the front engine's prop she walked into.
SGC
