Ipad - rubbish GPS?

[ExSp33db1rd]

Not going to get into this, never going to be problem for me, but I have had one experience of it recently, flying with a friend in his 172 from San Fernando Valley (Whiteman ) to Santa Ynez N.E. of Santa Barbara, California.

I felt uneasy at not being able to open a chart to see the route from end to end, moving sections of "the sectional" around the screen just wasn't the same, and zooming out made everything too small, tho' zooming in helped read all the airport information without having to find my glasses !

Following the blue line also meant I lost some situational awareness, I felt I was doing what I was told rather than working out what I had to do, which keeps one firmly in the loop.

It was nice to be able to get live Met. tho', especially as we flying early morning and fog clearance was a factor.

Not a fan of digital devices anyway, I don't "read" my instruments, or watch, so much as "look at the picture". I "know" the ASI needle is about 3 o'clock on the dial on final approach, and can see that out of the corner of my eye as I concentrate on flying the beast, I don't have to read and assimilate tumbling numbers and the speed at which the needle moves relates more to what I'm trying to achieve, as well, much more user friendly then just numbers moving at different speeds.

and I detest, with a vengeance, touch-screen technology, so the iPad will never be for me - best of luck flying an ILS in turbulence trying to look for information on your eyepad. Big dials and big knobs ( if you see what I mean ! ) for me.

But best of luck chaps, a Brave New World out there.

I don't need it, but interesting to read about your trials and tribulations.

[AdamFrisch]

I am sorry to say this but that is absolutely rubbish behaviour.
If it just lost the fix for 30 secs, why not a couple of hours?
A GPS is absolutely not supposed to do that.

You fail to add that for $399 you get moving map, complete database, weather, fuel prices and tons of other stuff, all with very good reliability. That's pretty spectacular. If you want to shoot WAAS approaches down to 1mm, then by all means fork out £15000 for the new Garmin GTN 750.

[SDB73]

You fail to add that for $399 ...

I agree with IO540 on this. A toothbrush is no more useful as an aviation nagivation device just because it's even cheaper than an iPad. A product is either useful for a purpose or not, and I think the point being made is that the iPad is not useful for the purpose of an aviation navigation device IF you want to be able to rely on it to a realistic level. Nothing is 100%, but it sounds to me as though many people are experiencing something like 70%, which is all but worthless in the cockpit.

I've tried the iPad in flight, and it's fun / worth having onboard, but to be honest I'd only use it as a document reader for plates, and a last ditch backup for a GPS in an emergency.

The problem is not so much the times when you look at it and know it's gone wrong, it's the fact that you may be looking a spurious, but realistic-looking information.

The original image, in the OP, however does not indicate on its own any kind of fault. Any GPS device needs time to acquire and settle down. The only negative I could say is that the software should probably indicate the predicted accuracy of the information being displayed, to avoid someone misreading it as meaningful info.

[AN2 Driver]

I am sorry to say this but that is absolutely rubbish behaviour.

If it just lost the fix for 30 secs, why not a couple of hours?

A GPS is absolutely not supposed to do that.

My Garmin 296 does it all the time....

[Jwscud]

Memory map is the problem - it's rubbish. I've used AirNav Pro and Foreflight extensively (over 100h flying) and never had any positioning problems. One reported issue is to do with what case you may or may not keep the iPad in - those with closing lids have been known to blank the signal.

[Justiciar]

Just to widen the discussion, two questions:

why would you want to buy something like an iPad to use as a GPS when there are so many dedicated GPS units out there; and (unconnected to the first)

What is the best GPS in terms of battery life? I ask this because I personally now fly aircraft without internal power so tha battery is all important. Most seem to run for no more than an hour and a half without additional utems like power monkey etc.

[172driver]

Justiciar,

Get a Garmin 96 or 96c (they don't make the b&w 96 any more, but they can be had on Ebay, etc; the 96c is still in production). Has a - proven - battery life of about 15 hours. Two caveats:
- there is no meaningful warning when the batteries go down, so always have spares handy (or change every 8 hours or so, there is a battery timer built in)
- the battery life decreases if you use an external antenna that's powered from the unit. Not by much, but worth keeping an eye on.

[muffin]

I didn't buy my Ipad to use it as a GPS. I started off by carrying it in the cockpit as a cross check to my new £1600 installed GPS, then found to my surprise that it was actually far easier to use and more reliable than the dedicated unit. Now I don't bother to switch the installed one on.

I also find that the varifocals which I wear when flying have the near focus (reading) portion exactly in the right position to read the Ipad screen when it is on my leg strap, so I don't have to keep slanting my head up and down like a chicken to read the panel mounted one clearly.

[dublinpilot]

I didn't buy my Ipad to use it as a GPS. I started off by carrying it in the cockpit as a cross check to my new £1600 installed GPS, then found to my surprise that it was actually far easier to use and more reliable than the dedicated unit. Now I don't bother to switch the installed one on.

What installed GPS is less reliable than an iPad?

[Justiciar]

Get a Garmin 96 or 96c

Thanks 172driver. You don't happen to have anything a bit more modern to recommend do you? Something aviation dedicated. The problem is that you always have to heavily discount any battery life, so something with at least a good 2 hours endurance in real conditions would be good.

[SDB73]

If budget permits, I would highly recommend the 795. It isn't exactly the longest battery life, but it's an astonishingly good device, and has about a 2 hr battery life if you leave it on solid, and on full brightness, but this is increased dramatically if you turnt he brightness down a bit.

And now, I've taken to letting it blank the screen when you don't touch it for a while.. you just touch the screen and it blinks immediately into life. This seems to have dramatically improved battery life also.

[flybymike]

Thanks 172driver. You don't happen to have anything a bit more modern to recommend do you? Something aviation dedicated. The problem is that you always have to heavily discount any battery life, so something with at least a good 2 hours endurance in real conditions would be good.

The G96 and 96c are aviation dedicated and have very long battery life, a good fifteen hours or so. The units give penty of warning of when a battery change is necessary. The 96c is still in production I think, (and I have a 96 for sale!)

[dutch crosswind]

so something with at least a good 2 hours endurance in real conditions would be good

I enjoy much the AV8OR, the 800 mAh is about 2 hours and the 1600 mAh (optional) lasts 4 hours at least at full luminance. No external receiver, no wires in the cockpit. I take both with me. It is a nice GPS, especially the profile view while flying in the mountains of Thailand.
The iPad was born immediately after I bought the AV8OR, which did not make me happy. But now, reading this thread (and more) I think it turns out to be the right choice!

[IO540]

I think the Ipad suffers from the same (inevitable) problem which all "computing devices with a GPS" suffer from: interference from the CPU etc messes up the GPS badly, and its design needs to be significantly compromised to work at all.

Any GPS receiver design is a compromise between initial acquisition time, accuracy, ability to hold a lock once acquired, etc.

For example a satellite phone might acquire a fix in seconds (it would be inconvenient otherwise, since they all need a GPS fix to make a call, for some reason) but might be pretty inaccurate afterwards.

In the I-devices, Apple use GSM and perhaps WIFI location services to give the GPS an initial fix, and to support the GPS afterwards. This is why that GPS is so good on the ground. But once you lose the assistance, you are back to a basic GPS design which is probably not very good anyway, and suffers from internal interference.

I would like to see an external GPS for the Ipad which has an external power input and an external antenna input. A GPS whose internal battery needs to be charged is just more hassle.

[Sillert,V.I.]

Originally Posted by IO540

I would like to see an external GPS for the Ipad which has an external power input and an external antenna input. A GPS whose internal battery needs to be charged is just more hassle.

I don't know if this works with iDevices, but with Android you can override the built-in GPS with an external GPS receiver connected via bluetooth. I've had good results with an ageing Holux GPSlim:

Holux GPSlim (GR-236) Review

which has connections for both external power and an external antenna.

[172driver]

Thanks 172driver. You don't happen to have anything a bit more modern to recommend do you? Something aviation dedicated. The problem is that you always have to heavily discount any battery life, so something with at least a good 2 hours endurance in real conditions would be good.

While certainly not the most modern of kit, it does what it says on the tin (and actually is aviation dedicated; you can load other non-aviation databases, though). Coupled with an external antenna it works a treat, also in some VERY remote parts of the world! Of course there are better units out there, but the problem, as I see it, is that many more modern devices simply devour the power

[IO540]

Sillert - AIUI, Apple have made the Ipad incompatible with every "normal" bluetooth GPS. So the SIRF-3 models your link shows won't work. I have tried a few of these myself; the Ipad doesn't even see the bluetooth device

There are just a few GPSs which are IOS compatible.

The problem for me is that I would want a neat and tidy installation. Even though I fly only my own plane, which nobody else flies, I still don't want power cords etc all over the place. So my old Emtac bluetooth GPS is velcroed away under the dash, is connected to a power feed (from the aircraft, via an approved power connector which was installed even before the plane had its original UK CofA inspection ) and is connected to a rooftop aviation-style GPS antenna which comes out on a BNC connector. The GPS itself has an internal battery which is good for 5-10 hours, but that is just a bonus.

[Justiciar]

While certainly not the most modern of kit, it does what it says on the tin (and actually is aviation dedicated; you can load other non-aviation databases, though). Coupled with an external antenna it works a treat, also in some VERY remote parts of the world!

Thanks again. I didn't spend enough time researching the model before replying. I see you can get a wrist strap. Again useful; I have flown in the Chipmunk with a Flymap (the old one based on the road angel) strapped to my knee but this means bending the head right down and squinting at the small screen from a little too far away - not good for keeping a lookout. Definitely one to explore further.

[172driver]

One more thing, Justiciar. The 'external antenna' bit is relevant in a Cessna, as the high wing obstructs satellite reception if the unit is yoke-mounted. In a Chipmunk flown in the UK (i.e. with plenty of satellites available), operating w/o the antenna should not be an issue.

[flybymike]

My G96 works just fine on the yoke of my C206 without any external antenna.