Birmingham Airport near miss caused by radio mix-up
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Its a completely different style of airport and the tower is an old style one which is built into the old terminal on the south of the runway on the 33 end.
Malaga tower is huge and distinct along with the fact as well that malaga has only CAT 1 lighting and no center line lights.
Landing in CAT II lighting is something out of close encounters of the third kind. there is a huge mat of banded strips in the touchdown zone the leading lights are stripping away.
He broke through at 600ft more than likely with quite a bit offset last thing he will be focusing on is the old terminal building with a red light shining out the window.
I do have alot of sympathy with the tower controller as well I might add. Sounds like a ****e old day at work at Brum with the wx pants and the ILS out. Back to the days when it was out on the 33 end and all the chaos that they had to put with for months until the work finished.
Malaga tower is huge and distinct along with the fact as well that malaga has only CAT 1 lighting and no center line lights.
Landing in CAT II lighting is something out of close encounters of the third kind. there is a huge mat of banded strips in the touchdown zone the leading lights are stripping away.
He broke through at 600ft more than likely with quite a bit offset last thing he will be focusing on is the old terminal building with a red light shining out the window.
I do have alot of sympathy with the tower controller as well I might add. Sounds like a ****e old day at work at Brum with the wx pants and the ILS out. Back to the days when it was out on the 33 end and all the chaos that they had to put with for months until the work finished.
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Exactly.
In fact you are authorised to do a complete flight and a landing, without any clearances, in a lost comms scenario in the IFR/CAS environment.
There are some limitations in the watertightly-compartmented English airspace e.g. cannot enter CAS on a flight which is OCAS but flight planned to land on a CAS airport, but AFAICT this is one of the variations which ICAO didn't think of.
Speaking of TBMs, some poor chap had a nasty prang here. I think I have flown with the pilot, too.
In fact you are authorised to do a complete flight and a landing, without any clearances, in a lost comms scenario in the IFR/CAS environment.
There are some limitations in the watertightly-compartmented English airspace e.g. cannot enter CAS on a flight which is OCAS but flight planned to land on a CAS airport, but AFAICT this is one of the variations which ICAO didn't think of.
Speaking of TBMs, some poor chap had a nasty prang here. I think I have flown with the pilot, too.
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Maybe but this part is very relevant and is basic knowledge for the issue of an RT licence, in the UK anyway!
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There is no evidence to suggest that the pilot tried to diagnose the apparent radio failure.
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Aye but you seen those G1000 if you press the wrong button your knackard if you don't know the thing inside out and know how to get back to where you started. Its like getting locked into an overlay on an EFIS machine with no clue how to get your primary data back with all the buttons doing overlay stuff instead of what it says on the button.
When I first started out on the G530 a few times I had to take control from the FO through no fault of their's. It was just so they could put there head down and sort out my kack handed button pushing.
When I first started out on the G530 a few times I had to take control from the FO through no fault of their's. It was just so they could put there head down and sort out my kack handed button pushing.
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Yes I know what you mean Jock but if you fly in CAS with public transport flights you expect a minmum level of competency surely?
CAP 413 advises
When an aircraft station is unable to establish contact with the aeronautical station
on the designated frequency it shall attempt to establish contact on another
frequency appropriate to the route being flown. If this attempt fails, the aircraft
station shall attempt to establish communication with other aircraft or other
aeronautical stations on frequencies appropriate to the route.
All he had to do is recontact the approach controller-in fact he wasted time believing that the controller was on the phone!
CAP 413 advises
When an aircraft station is unable to establish contact with the aeronautical station
on the designated frequency it shall attempt to establish contact on another
frequency appropriate to the route being flown. If this attempt fails, the aircraft
station shall attempt to establish communication with other aircraft or other
aeronautical stations on frequencies appropriate to the route.
All he had to do is recontact the approach controller-in fact he wasted time believing that the controller was on the phone!
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Thats all very well when you have a smidge of spare capacity.
Not with standing single crew and no call from the other seat "wrong frequency you knob!"
I have had some hairy old approaches onto that runway with the ILS dropping out while we were on approach converting to a NDB. And it wasn't pleasant with two crew who had been doing "brum" for a couple of years 5-10 times a week.
Single crew, non native speaker in a new aircraft with systems he was just getting into, he must have been hanging out his backside. I would have needed the AFS to help get the seat cover from between my bum cheeks even if everything had gone to plan and there hadn't been an incident.
Not with standing single crew and no call from the other seat "wrong frequency you knob!"
I have had some hairy old approaches onto that runway with the ILS dropping out while we were on approach converting to a NDB. And it wasn't pleasant with two crew who had been doing "brum" for a couple of years 5-10 times a week.
Single crew, non native speaker in a new aircraft with systems he was just getting into, he must have been hanging out his backside. I would have needed the AFS to help get the seat cover from between my bum cheeks even if everything had gone to plan and there hadn't been an incident.
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Yes I know what you mean Jock but if you fly in CAS with public transport flights you expect a minmum level of competency surely?
All he had to do is recontact the approach controller-in fact he wasted time believing that the controller was on the phone!
All he had to do is recontact the approach controller-in fact he wasted time believing that the controller was on the phone!
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. He did the first two, by the book, and landed his aircraft. He didn't have the capacity to the third by the sound of it.
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Single crew, non native speaker in a new aircraft with systems he was just getting into, he must have been hanging out his backside. I would have needed the AFS to help get the seat cover from between my bum cheeks even if everything had gone to plan and there hadn't been an incident.
So I think your amusing portrait of a white knuckled pilot who is sh*t scared all the way down the approach is way overdone.
I fly relatively little "hard IFR" (most IFR is in VMC) but I have never had the slightest problem flying any approach, and I have a lot less cockpit automation than this TBM has.
It is also pretty difficult to get signed off, and insured, for a TBM without knowing where the knobs are and what they do. The G1000 is opaque to a newcomer, and is perhaps forever beyond some people who can get a PPL, but not to an intelligent pilot who has done the course.
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. He did the first two, by the book, and landed his aircraft.
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I am sure its a lovely aircraft.
I know when I went from steam driven no auto pilot into a Honeywell EFIS machine it took quite a while for things to settle down until the automation didn't use up more capacity than kicking the AP out getting a full rose up and just flying the sod.
Yep once you get up to brown belt with the kit its easy to press a button twiddle a knob press another two and hey presto your beam bar is locked onto a presudo VORTAC approach it captures you dial in 600ft/min decent and you pop out right where you expect to.
I wouldn't say he was **** scared either that usually comes afterwards.
And I have flown lots of hard IFR not seeing the ground until mins for sometimes weeks at a time 4 flights a day in every bit of ****e wx you can find in Scotland and Scandinavia. I have done it without a AP on steam instruments and with a Honeywell EFIS. But I have always had someone sitting next to me to check what I am doing and also take work load off me. I really do take my hat of to folk that do do it single crew its hard enough work with two of you.
I know when I went from steam driven no auto pilot into a Honeywell EFIS machine it took quite a while for things to settle down until the automation didn't use up more capacity than kicking the AP out getting a full rose up and just flying the sod.
Yep once you get up to brown belt with the kit its easy to press a button twiddle a knob press another two and hey presto your beam bar is locked onto a presudo VORTAC approach it captures you dial in 600ft/min decent and you pop out right where you expect to.
I wouldn't say he was **** scared either that usually comes afterwards.
And I have flown lots of hard IFR not seeing the ground until mins for sometimes weeks at a time 4 flights a day in every bit of ****e wx you can find in Scotland and Scandinavia. I have done it without a AP on steam instruments and with a Honeywell EFIS. But I have always had someone sitting next to me to check what I am doing and also take work load off me. I really do take my hat of to folk that do do it single crew its hard enough work with two of you.
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I tend to agree with mad Jock on this one. This Pilot was flying single pilot. Not only that but it was not his only Job, He had a meeting to consider, he had two other businessmen to collect from seperate airports enroute with the extra workload that would have entailed.
He only had 1100 hrs total time with not a lot on type.
English is not his native language.
Yes most of us would have gone back to the last frequency used but consider this.
The mind plays tricks! Under the pressure of landing with very little time before landing and very little time to sort out whats wrong its very easy especially with a system you are not 100% familiar with to jump to the wrong conclusion!
My radios have failed they failed before so thats it they have failed! end of story.
He should have dialed in 7600 but again in the time scale left didnt.
With that amount of time left to touchdown even with 7600 what could ATC do? All they could do was to inform the other aircraft to stay put!
What could the pilot do different believing in all sincerity that his radios had failed?
He could have executed a missed approach and flown a procedural approach?
He could have taken up the hold and tried to sort things out?
He could have just landed! That is presuming as Jock said that he even saw another aircraft sitting way before the numbers.
The numbers is where his focus would be.
He was not the only one at fault in all this IMO although its easy to point the finger at one scapegoat.
Pace
He only had 1100 hrs total time with not a lot on type.
English is not his native language.
Yes most of us would have gone back to the last frequency used but consider this.
The mind plays tricks! Under the pressure of landing with very little time before landing and very little time to sort out whats wrong its very easy especially with a system you are not 100% familiar with to jump to the wrong conclusion!
My radios have failed they failed before so thats it they have failed! end of story.
He should have dialed in 7600 but again in the time scale left didnt.
With that amount of time left to touchdown even with 7600 what could ATC do? All they could do was to inform the other aircraft to stay put!
What could the pilot do different believing in all sincerity that his radios had failed?
He could have executed a missed approach and flown a procedural approach?
He could have taken up the hold and tried to sort things out?
He could have just landed! That is presuming as Jock said that he even saw another aircraft sitting way before the numbers.
The numbers is where his focus would be.
He was not the only one at fault in all this IMO although its easy to point the finger at one scapegoat.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 13th Oct 2011 at 17:10.
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An interesting read, as ever. AAIB, as seems usual recently, seems to have more to say about the ATC side of things rather than the piloting elements.
A few thoughts that occurred to me reading through it (no angle to grind, just observations):
Even though type of approach not mentioned on ATIS, wouldn't Radar have told pilot what type he was being vectored for in one of first transmissions?
The ATIS did mention ILS transmissions, so non-native english speaker may have well understood this to mean that the ILS was now serviceable again.
Whilst being vectored, the pilot says his speed is going UP to 170, so maybe he speeded up in response to the call to reduce to 180knots - may have left him residually faster than he had planned for.
Pilot readbacks frequency incompletely 'One Eight Three'. Perhaps controller could have re-iterated 'One One Eight Decimal Three' back to pilot in case he did try dialling in on '183'.
With a radio failure evident, did Tower controller initiate a 'Local Standby' in case of any other problems that pilot may have had and hadn't been able to communicate to ATC?
A few thoughts that occurred to me reading through it (no angle to grind, just observations):
Even though type of approach not mentioned on ATIS, wouldn't Radar have told pilot what type he was being vectored for in one of first transmissions?
The ATIS did mention ILS transmissions, so non-native english speaker may have well understood this to mean that the ILS was now serviceable again.
Whilst being vectored, the pilot says his speed is going UP to 170, so maybe he speeded up in response to the call to reduce to 180knots - may have left him residually faster than he had planned for.
Pilot readbacks frequency incompletely 'One Eight Three'. Perhaps controller could have re-iterated 'One One Eight Decimal Three' back to pilot in case he did try dialling in on '183'.
With a radio failure evident, did Tower controller initiate a 'Local Standby' in case of any other problems that pilot may have had and hadn't been able to communicate to ATC?
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It is very common to hear a readback by a pilot which is either utterly illegible or simply wrong, and ATC dont query it. UK ATC tend to do so but abroad they rarely do. A lot of airliner comms is very sloppy so mistakes tend to be ignored.
On the whole I was impressed with the AAIB report. Some recent GA related ones were of very poor quality especially where an N reg was involved.
On the whole I was impressed with the AAIB report. Some recent GA related ones were of very poor quality especially where an N reg was involved.
The trouble is that everybody can quote Swiss cheeses but not many people think in practical terms of what it is an analogy for! (Actually, it's a damn' silly analogy - why would anyone ever want to take slices of Emmental and carefully align them - or are you supposed to throw them in the air and see how they fall?)
2 s
2 s
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My radios have failed they failed before so thats it they have failed! end of story.
A moments thought can prevent a lifetimes regret.
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This does boil down to <aviate, navigate, communicate>, which the poor chap did to the best of his (admittedly, limited) ability.
Swiss cheese is indeed a load of nonsense, but it's kept Jim Reason in fine wines for long enough for him to work out that there's no money to be made in aviation.
Sid Dekker is your man, if you want to learn about 'safety' without having accidents to start with. Google him, then use amazon etc. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
Swiss cheese is indeed a load of nonsense, but it's kept Jim Reason in fine wines for long enough for him to work out that there's no money to be made in aviation.
Sid Dekker is your man, if you want to learn about 'safety' without having accidents to start with. Google him, then use amazon etc. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
