Before I even begin...
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Arut
Regarding the two airfields that you are looking at – make inquires about the landing fees
Are these included with your membership fee of a flying club at those airports? Or do you need to pay each time you land etc? This could make a considerable difference in your decision making process
I am lucky in that the club that I fly from has free landing fees for members (built into the annual club membership fee) but I understand that not all clubs and airfields are like this and certainly a consideration to be aware of
The comments above are also correct in that you want to get an idea of how long you will be messing around waiting on the ground before you actually go anywhere. Most places charge from brakes off to brakes on, and if you are in a long queue waiting at the hold for a biz jet to come in you can end up paying a lot of money to sit around on the ground
Regards, Nick
Regarding the two airfields that you are looking at – make inquires about the landing fees
Are these included with your membership fee of a flying club at those airports? Or do you need to pay each time you land etc? This could make a considerable difference in your decision making process
I am lucky in that the club that I fly from has free landing fees for members (built into the annual club membership fee) but I understand that not all clubs and airfields are like this and certainly a consideration to be aware of
The comments above are also correct in that you want to get an idea of how long you will be messing around waiting on the ground before you actually go anywhere. Most places charge from brakes off to brakes on, and if you are in a long queue waiting at the hold for a biz jet to come in you can end up paying a lot of money to sit around on the ground
Regards, Nick
Join Date: Jul 2009
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The best part about learning at a dedicated GA airfield (something that Biggin is definitely not) is that you can almost always just power up and go. Somewhere like Biggin you will often need to wait in a queue to line up, and jet/commercial traffic will always get priority over PPL training flights. Then when you're in the circuit you'll get told to orbit to allow something else to join, or be told to go around so that a jet can line up and take off.
The benefits are a HUGE tarmac runway, self-service refuelling (no more bowser chasing!), ATC, and... oh yeah... all that jet traffic (as it will be good experience for you to mix with commercial traffic, in case you actually want to fly somewhere, particularly abroad where English speaking airports tend to be the bigger ones!).
The biggest down side, other than the place being on a hill and therefore a bit closer to the clouds, is the cost of flying there. 10 landings cost over £200! 10 circuits over £70.
You get what you pay for though... did I mention the HUGE runway?
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Dorking, England
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Redhill's a beautiful grass airfield especially in the Summer, like this week.
Biggin has the educational mix of traffic, on-airfield customs, approach aids and late opening for night flying.
Both are great, just check out a few clubs and pricing. Enjoy!
Biggin has the educational mix of traffic, on-airfield customs, approach aids and late opening for night flying.
Both are great, just check out a few clubs and pricing. Enjoy!
Join Date: Mar 2011
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Regarding Sims, there are sims, and then there are sims.
Personally I quite easily get in an aircraft after a 15 month lay-off and fly as well as I did for the GST.
This is because I have a sim that completely as possible replicates both the aircraft I fly and also the world around me.
There are a number of 'negative' transfers that can occur. For example a long term simmer may be transfixed on the instruments during an early VFR training flight when they should be looking outside. Most of this is played up a lot though and if you are aware of it before starting in the real world it isn't much of an issue.
However, as you are starting flying training and considering a sim as an aid you can avoid most of the problems.
If you go for it buy FSX, invest in VFR photo scenery for your training area so landmarks are replicated (Horizon and Just Flight both provide VFR photo scenery, I prefer Just Flight's version). Get a decent model of the aircraft you are training in (not one provide by MS) and budget at least 2K for a decent PC to run it, rudder pedals, yoke and head tracking.
Sims at this level are very useful, be it basic co-ordination, nailing circuits or just keeping your hand in when the weather cancels 4 lessons in a row. It cannot totally replicate control inputs, but then again you can't pause or replay a real aeroplane and figure where you went wrong. The 'feel' of every real aeroplane is different in any case and I've never found it to be a problem at all that the controls are not exactly the same. Gross co-ordination is the same.
I wasn't much of a simmer when I started flying training btw, to this day I've never done a 'fantasy' flight, it's enough for me to use it to compliment real world flying. I was also advised by a guy who was evaluating FSX systems for RAF basic training - the value is there and much of what you gain from a sim is actually to do with how cleverly you choose to use it and how far you replicate the many routines that make up flying. Just being able to sit in a virtual cockpit and run through a checklist is a real bonus for example. As is making a radio call at the right time etc.
In all looking at the initial cost and what it has probably saved me during initial training and later regaining currency, I would say it was a good investment.
Personally I quite easily get in an aircraft after a 15 month lay-off and fly as well as I did for the GST.
This is because I have a sim that completely as possible replicates both the aircraft I fly and also the world around me.
There are a number of 'negative' transfers that can occur. For example a long term simmer may be transfixed on the instruments during an early VFR training flight when they should be looking outside. Most of this is played up a lot though and if you are aware of it before starting in the real world it isn't much of an issue.
However, as you are starting flying training and considering a sim as an aid you can avoid most of the problems.
If you go for it buy FSX, invest in VFR photo scenery for your training area so landmarks are replicated (Horizon and Just Flight both provide VFR photo scenery, I prefer Just Flight's version). Get a decent model of the aircraft you are training in (not one provide by MS) and budget at least 2K for a decent PC to run it, rudder pedals, yoke and head tracking.
Sims at this level are very useful, be it basic co-ordination, nailing circuits or just keeping your hand in when the weather cancels 4 lessons in a row. It cannot totally replicate control inputs, but then again you can't pause or replay a real aeroplane and figure where you went wrong. The 'feel' of every real aeroplane is different in any case and I've never found it to be a problem at all that the controls are not exactly the same. Gross co-ordination is the same.
I wasn't much of a simmer when I started flying training btw, to this day I've never done a 'fantasy' flight, it's enough for me to use it to compliment real world flying. I was also advised by a guy who was evaluating FSX systems for RAF basic training - the value is there and much of what you gain from a sim is actually to do with how cleverly you choose to use it and how far you replicate the many routines that make up flying. Just being able to sit in a virtual cockpit and run through a checklist is a real bonus for example. As is making a radio call at the right time etc.
In all looking at the initial cost and what it has probably saved me during initial training and later regaining currency, I would say it was a good investment.
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Join Date: Sep 2011
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@nick ritter
Which club do you fly with? All the ones I have researched so far have the landing and circuit fees separate. As far as I can tell the membership fee goes to cover the admin and the insurance (probably)
Which club do you fly with? All the ones I have researched so far have the landing and circuit fees separate. As far as I can tell the membership fee goes to cover the admin and the insurance (probably)
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Biggin is actually a nice place to fly. You won't generally be waiting in a queue but there will be insanely busy times (usually in the afternoon). Jet traffic does get priority but you won't be told to orbit to "let something else join", most jet traffic will fly straight in on the ILS. You certainly won't ever be told to go around for the benefit of a departing jet. You may find you are told to land and return to the hold for jet arrivals or if there is someone flying circuits in a jet - which isn't very likely - before being able to continue.
The benefits are a HUGE tarmac runway, self-service refuelling (no more bowser chasing!), ATC, and... oh yeah... all that jet traffic (as it will be good experience for you to mix with commercial traffic, in case you actually want to fly somewhere, particularly abroad where English speaking airports tend to be the bigger ones!).
The biggest down side, other than the place being on a hill and therefore a bit closer to the clouds, is the cost of flying there. 10 landings cost over £200! 10 circuits over £70.
You get what you pay for though... did I mention the HUGE runway?
The benefits are a HUGE tarmac runway, self-service refuelling (no more bowser chasing!), ATC, and... oh yeah... all that jet traffic (as it will be good experience for you to mix with commercial traffic, in case you actually want to fly somewhere, particularly abroad where English speaking airports tend to be the bigger ones!).
The biggest down side, other than the place being on a hill and therefore a bit closer to the clouds, is the cost of flying there. 10 landings cost over £200! 10 circuits over £70.
You get what you pay for though... did I mention the HUGE runway?
And landing fees? Crikey. Not even included in the flying costs? That's going to seriously add up if you find you need a few hours of circuits to master the flare!
Most smaller airfields have self-service fuel don't they?
Don't know if a huge tarmac runway is a training benefit? How will those who trained that way manage when they come to land on a 500m bumpy grass strip? If you want a huge runway with a cheap landing fee and no traffic anywhere to be seen, go to Manston ;-)
Join Date: Aug 2011
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@ arut
If a Flying Club charges an annual fee for membership and then you get charged for home landings on top of this, then you kind of have to wonder what you're actually getting for your annual fee. Admin and insurance can be covered from their normal operating income (instruction, hangarage, parking, visitor's landing fees, engineering).
I view it like a golf club. My golf club charges me an annual subscription for membership. For that, I can use the course as much as I like. If they started asking me to pay every time I played, then I'd be wondering what on earth I was getting for the subscription.
The key to getting around this is to go a place where the club/flying school owns the airfield. If you go somewhere where the organisation is one of many tenants at the airfield, and you still have to pay for landings, then I don't see how they can justify charging for any sort of 'membership'. All you then get for that membership fee is the right to spend more money.
If a Flying Club charges an annual fee for membership and then you get charged for home landings on top of this, then you kind of have to wonder what you're actually getting for your annual fee. Admin and insurance can be covered from their normal operating income (instruction, hangarage, parking, visitor's landing fees, engineering).
I view it like a golf club. My golf club charges me an annual subscription for membership. For that, I can use the course as much as I like. If they started asking me to pay every time I played, then I'd be wondering what on earth I was getting for the subscription.
The key to getting around this is to go a place where the club/flying school owns the airfield. If you go somewhere where the organisation is one of many tenants at the airfield, and you still have to pay for landings, then I don't see how they can justify charging for any sort of 'membership'. All you then get for that membership fee is the right to spend more money.
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I'm sure Biggin is a lovely place to fly. I may have had the details wrong but training at an airport of that sort you will, on a regular basis, be asked to sit doing nothing on the ground (paying flying rates) whilst the tower prioritizes an aircraft that those who run the business consider more important.
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Wow, paying landing fees at your home airfield...if i'd had to, the amount of touch and goes i did before I mastered cct flying, i'd be skint!!
I know it would be a trip around the M25
but try looking into the RAF Halton Flying Club. I hate to think what Clubs around Sevenoaks charge - frightening I would imagine! Membership will be much cheaper, as will the hourly rate, landing is free for club members, ATC is good, the level of training is second to none... and yes, they welcome civilian members (well, the club i'm in does!)
I know it would be a trip around the M25
but try looking into the RAF Halton Flying Club. I hate to think what Clubs around Sevenoaks charge - frightening I would imagine! Membership will be much cheaper, as will the hourly rate, landing is free for club members, ATC is good, the level of training is second to none... and yes, they welcome civilian members (well, the club i'm in does!)
