EASA AND THE IMCR - NEWS
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Your United Kingdom PPL will be acceptable for use on EASA aircraft until April 2014 and with reduced privileges until Apr 2015. Its use on non-EASA aircraft will not be affected by EASA.
There is no reason why a UK IMCR cannot be included on a valid UK PPL and used as above.
The problem comes with conversion to an EASA PPL. The future of the UK IMCR for use on EASA aircraft has yet to be agreed and is unlikely to be agreed before the end of 2013.
You should advise the CAA that you will be seeking inclusion of an IMCR on an existing UK non-JAR PPL. There is no point in converting your UK PPL earlier than necessary UNLESS the €urocrats accept the UK's NPA 2011-16 comment response proposals.
For pilots with more than 100 hrs instrument flight time as PIC, the conversion of a PPL/IR to an EASA PPL/IR is loosely described in Annex III to the Basic Regulation. Several comment responses have proposed lesser requirements for conversion of a third country IR to the proposed competency-based modular IR.
There is no reason why a UK IMCR cannot be included on a valid UK PPL and used as above.
The problem comes with conversion to an EASA PPL. The future of the UK IMCR for use on EASA aircraft has yet to be agreed and is unlikely to be agreed before the end of 2013.
You should advise the CAA that you will be seeking inclusion of an IMCR on an existing UK non-JAR PPL. There is no point in converting your UK PPL earlier than necessary UNLESS the €urocrats accept the UK's NPA 2011-16 comment response proposals.
For pilots with more than 100 hrs instrument flight time as PIC, the conversion of a PPL/IR to an EASA PPL/IR is loosely described in Annex III to the Basic Regulation. Several comment responses have proposed lesser requirements for conversion of a third country IR to the proposed competency-based modular IR.
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For pilots with more than 100 hrs instrument flight time as PIC, the conversion of a PPL/IR to an EASA PPL/IR is loosely described in Annex III to the Basic Regulation. Several comment responses have proposed lesser requirements for conversion of a third country IR to the proposed competency-based modular IR.
- still have to do the/some exams (which are undefined, so that aspect is vulnerable to gold plating before/if this proposal is adopted, and whether or not a QB will exist is undefined but a QB reduces the study workload by about 10x)
- no flight training required; you go straight for the IRT (which nobody will actually pass without 10-30hrs of flight training, because the IRT is not changing and the syllabus will still contain the NDB procedures on which a converting IR candidate can expect to spend some 90% of his flight training time)
So, all in all, I do not see a substantial change for ICAO IR holders, from the package on the table at present, to a realistic implementation of what is being proposed (but may or may not come).
Mind you, they have only till April 2012, which is not enough time to even pass the exams now, unless the 15hr route is continuing.
I thus suspect what will happen is that, post-April, nobody will do anything to convert until the CBM IR is here, maybe a couple of years later, or until they are about to be screwed (if they get screwed; other outcomes are possible e.g. a de facto meltdown of the proposal).
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Aopa website has some fairly up to date info, It looks like the rating will continue for annex 2 aircraft, position on an EASA aircraft which is what most of us fly, its unsure. It will impact lots of folk, however I have considered getting a share in a bulldog , which are fun and aerobatic, and one could still use your IMC privileges and stick two fingers up at the eurocrats.
I personally think there will be an answer forth coming. Which will of course cost money. The best option is to get a SEIR, but not cheap and not particularly easy, and most people can't justify that.
I have been flying 30 years and there always has been times when people where unsure what to do with regard licenses, becauseof changes in the rules. I had a FAA PPL/IR into our school this week, he can't get a CAA medical so no chance to get SEIR, he can maintain his NPPL with a medical declaration, but can,t even get an IMC.
Its totally unfair as he has been operating his complex ac in UK for years quite safely. In his case money can't sort the problem. Unless he moves to the US I guess.
I have considered hanging up the flying gloves, but I have been through the hassle of changing my CAA licenses to JAR,which can then go to EASA. As the CAA told me my UK licenses would be no good for teaching in EASA world.
Unfair again, but have no choice if I want to continue what I am currently doing. It all depends I guess how much hassle you want to maintain what you already have, thanks to the Eurocrats.
I personally think there will be an answer forth coming. Which will of course cost money. The best option is to get a SEIR, but not cheap and not particularly easy, and most people can't justify that.
I have been flying 30 years and there always has been times when people where unsure what to do with regard licenses, becauseof changes in the rules. I had a FAA PPL/IR into our school this week, he can't get a CAA medical so no chance to get SEIR, he can maintain his NPPL with a medical declaration, but can,t even get an IMC.
Its totally unfair as he has been operating his complex ac in UK for years quite safely. In his case money can't sort the problem. Unless he moves to the US I guess.
I have considered hanging up the flying gloves, but I have been through the hassle of changing my CAA licenses to JAR,which can then go to EASA. As the CAA told me my UK licenses would be no good for teaching in EASA world.
Unfair again, but have no choice if I want to continue what I am currently doing. It all depends I guess how much hassle you want to maintain what you already have, thanks to the Eurocrats.
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It looks like the rating will continue for annex 2 aircraft
As it stands the rating could be kept but is next to useless. What we need is the rating to be grandfathered onto an EASA licence not lip service paid to the situation by giving rights that are useless.
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Take a look at the number of Annex II aircraft that are IFR capable and come back to me with a number....
I understand that the LAA has proposed an easing of the restrictions which currently apply to Permit to Fly aircraft, so that certain PtoF aircraft may in future be permitted to fly under IFR. If the proposal is successful, hopefully a few more people will be able to ignore the nonsense which is €ASA.
Is Annex II ! (And well known to most of us from her regular appearances in the NOTAMS, callsign "Metman").
So of course are Bulldogs, Chipmunks, any ex-military warbirds on permits; I have a share in a 1947 American taildragger on a CofA that is on a private CofA, and remains IMC capable (just!): this is Annex II. It really wouldn't take much, if anything, to get many Europas, RVs, etc - which are all Annex II, IMC capable.
If Concorde was still flying, that would be Annex II as well.
G
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Beagle, excuse my ignorance but is
the UK PPL different to a JAR-PPL? I have a JAR PPL so does the above apply to me? And if it's different what exactly is a UK PPL and why would anyone get one?
Your United Kingdom PPL will be acceptable for use on EASA aircraft until April 2014 and with reduced privileges until Apr 2015.
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I understand that the LAA has proposed an easing of the restrictions which currently apply to Permit to Fly aircraft, so that certain PtoF aircraft may in future be permitted to fly under IFR. If the proposal is successful, hopefully a few more people will be able to ignore the nonsense which is €ASA.
The airframes have to meet various requirements e.g. lighting protection.
It could be done on a sub ICAO basis, like the USA does it, but that isn't likely to happen under EASA. AFAICT the only sub-ICAO thing which EASA is interested in is the LAPL which will be sub-ICAO due to the GP medical.
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A lot of the questions and comments have concentrated on ways to stick two fingers up to EASA and continue to exercise the (IMCr) privileges on national licences and on Annex II aircraft, however for pilots with JAR licences and a current IMCr (before April 2012) the proposals outlined in the recent NPA (flight in instrumental meteorological conditions) potentially make IMC flying much more accessible within EASA.
As I understand it, those with an IMC rating attached to a JAR licence before April 2012 will continue to be able to exercise the privileges as before, but in addition the IMCr hours will count towards the new competence based modular IR. To my mind, that's much better situation that we have today; i.e. those who have a current IMCr and only want an IMCr will continue to be able to use it (probably called a restricted UK IR), and those who want a full IR will be able to use the IMCr as credit within the new modular system.
As I understand it, those with an IMC rating attached to a JAR licence before April 2012 will continue to be able to exercise the privileges as before, but in addition the IMCr hours will count towards the new competence based modular IR. To my mind, that's much better situation that we have today; i.e. those who have a current IMCr and only want an IMCr will continue to be able to use it (probably called a restricted UK IR), and those who want a full IR will be able to use the IMCr as credit within the new modular system.
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As I understand it, those with an IMC rating attached to a JAR licence before April 2012 will continue to be able to exercise the privileges as before, but in addition the IMCr hours will count towards the new competence based modular IR. To my mind, that's much better situation that we have today; i.e. those who have a current IMCr and only want an IMCr will continue to be able to use it (probably called a restricted UK IR), and those who want a full IR will be able to use the IMCr as credit within the new modular system.
Thing,
Yes, JAR PPLs & UK PPLs are treated differently under the new rules.
Your JAR licence will be considered an EASA licence, valid for flight in EASA aircraft even beyond 2014 or 2015, at least until the licence expires. When you apply for a new licence, you will be given an EASA licence, no conversion required. Anyone who has just passed their test & been issued a JAR PPL will be able to continue flying on that licence in EASA aircraft until Feb 2017.
Those of us that gained our PPL before the advent of JAR possess UK national PPLs & will have to convert to EASA before 2014 or 2015 (depending on what type of flying we do.)
Yes, JAR PPLs & UK PPLs are treated differently under the new rules.
Your JAR licence will be considered an EASA licence, valid for flight in EASA aircraft even beyond 2014 or 2015, at least until the licence expires. When you apply for a new licence, you will be given an EASA licence, no conversion required. Anyone who has just passed their test & been issued a JAR PPL will be able to continue flying on that licence in EASA aircraft until Feb 2017.
Those of us that gained our PPL before the advent of JAR possess UK national PPLs & will have to convert to EASA before 2014 or 2015 (depending on what type of flying we do.)
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Ah, thanks, so the UK PPL is what you got before some previous date when they renamed it the JAR one then? Was there a difference in the flying training? ie why is it considered different to a JAR one other than the name.
I thought being a UK citizen that I would naturally have a UK PPL called a JAR PPL but obviously not, but then I know very little about the regulations apertaining to these things. They seem rather labyrinthe though.
I thought being a UK citizen that I would naturally have a UK PPL called a JAR PPL but obviously not, but then I know very little about the regulations apertaining to these things. They seem rather labyrinthe though.
Thread Starter
...the UK PPL different to a JAR-PPL? I have a JAR PPL so does the above apply to me? And if it's different what exactly is a UK PPL and why would anyone get one?
Conversion from a UK PPL to a JAR-FCL PPL was not compulsory, hence many people still have them.
Under the nonsense of €ASA, there will be some ratings which cannot be included in an €ASA PPL, but can be included in a UK PPL. Hence the CAA is preparing to issue supplementary licences (for £35) within which those ratings can be included. But people will not be able to 'train' for a new-style United Kingdom PPL, it will purely be an administrative method of ensuring that people do not lose any privileges under €ASA. The whole thing is an utter dog's breakfast and there are bound to be dozens of people flying outside their privileges thanks to the insane €urocracy coming our way soon.....
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I feel allowance of IMC hours for new IR is a good idea. As was allowed pre JAR - 12 I believe. Under new system the proposal is 30 hours, leaving 10 hours training for the CBM IR. However as money is always the major factor with most of us, reduction in training minima is welcome, however 10 hours will not be enough to pass the IRT test for most. So the cost will increase.
One of my PPL students has just completed his IR will an IR approved school, not me, he is a competent pilot and instructor and took three attempts at his SEIR test, overall cost £14K for a single rating. To much for most of us, with our flying as a hobby, on top of our normal expenditure.
Just because the minimum requirement goes down does n't really mean lower cost.
As an instructor I am being constantly asked about rules and regs of licences, Im no expert, but have been reading loads lately, we are all becoming more wrapped up with over regulation, as in other industries.
One of my PPL students has just completed his IR will an IR approved school, not me, he is a competent pilot and instructor and took three attempts at his SEIR test, overall cost £14K for a single rating. To much for most of us, with our flying as a hobby, on top of our normal expenditure.
Just because the minimum requirement goes down does n't really mean lower cost.
As an instructor I am being constantly asked about rules and regs of licences, Im no expert, but have been reading loads lately, we are all becoming more wrapped up with over regulation, as in other industries.
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3 IRT fails is a pity. He should have done the syllabus, picked up the 170A form completed, and then privately rented a freelance IRI to "get good" with, and then (when happy) booked himself an IRT directly with the CAA.
My IR conversion took 32hrs (partly due to a break in training which cost a fair bit of currency, and some other hassles, and I then flew quite a lot with a freelance instructor to be really sure) and the costs were
Ground FTO course material and IR exam signoff (with 3 days' ground school) £1020
Online QB £13
CAA IR Exams £476
Training (instructor charge only) £2000
Approaches £350
CAA IR Aircraft Approval and IR Test fee £962
Adding the IR to the licence £87
On top of that was the cost of flying in my aircraft - another £2500 or so, but I fly regularly for currency anyway so don't think that should be counted anywhere near fully.
IOW, credits for previous training are worth a good deal less than they appear. That said, the present minimum 50/55hrs is way OTT and it should be almost entirely competence based (as the CBM IR would be if/when it comes).
My IR conversion took 32hrs (partly due to a break in training which cost a fair bit of currency, and some other hassles, and I then flew quite a lot with a freelance instructor to be really sure) and the costs were
Ground FTO course material and IR exam signoff (with 3 days' ground school) £1020
Online QB £13
CAA IR Exams £476
Training (instructor charge only) £2000
Approaches £350
CAA IR Aircraft Approval and IR Test fee £962
Adding the IR to the licence £87
On top of that was the cost of flying in my aircraft - another £2500 or so, but I fly regularly for currency anyway so don't think that should be counted anywhere near fully.
IOW, credits for previous training are worth a good deal less than they appear. That said, the present minimum 50/55hrs is way OTT and it should be almost entirely competence based (as the CBM IR would be if/when it comes).