Buying First Aircraft
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Originally Posted by Rod1
VLA is up to 750kg and many will lift two adults, 4 hours of fuel and bags. Does not alter the fact that VLA is daytime VFR only so not relevant in this case but does add to the confusion.
I can't think of any aircraft that would fill your description - two adults (2x 85 kg = 170kg), bags (10kg) and 4 hours of fuel (4 hours x 18 liters/h 0,78 kg/liter = 56kg) requires total of 235 kg of useful load. Not to mention that most manufacturers publish standard empty weights with basic equipment - you need a bit more than GNS430 to go places. Off the topic, last I read, CS-VLA will be amended in few years, the MTOM will be increased, night VFR will be allowed (like DA20), I even saw possibility for 3rd seat.
CS-VLA will be amended in few years, the MTOM will be increased, night VFR will be allowed (like DA20), I even saw possibility for 3rd seat
G
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I would certainly want to make sure anyone who wished to hire an aircraft off us was qualified to undertake the proposed flight. Indeed our booking system monitors the expiry dates of customers medicals, licences & ratings, also when they flew last for currency purposes. You can just imagine the hassle from the "no win-no fee" industry, if anyone was injured and there was a problem with the pilot's qualifications. Equally, the insurance company will look for any reason not to pay out on a potential claim.
As to safe and sensible, as Genghis points out, one of the advantages of flying within a club or syndicate environment, is that you have other people to ask if you are unsure of your planned flight. I've certainly stopped PPLs setting off on "unwise" flights in club aircraft in the past and I'm sure I'll have to keep doing it on a regular basis as long as I remain a FI.
As to safe and sensible, as Genghis points out, one of the advantages of flying within a club or syndicate environment, is that you have other people to ask if you are unsure of your planned flight. I've certainly stopped PPLs setting off on "unwise" flights in club aircraft in the past and I'm sure I'll have to keep doing it on a regular basis as long as I remain a FI.
It is however, commendable that there are FI's who monitor every club flight for their safety and legality. Do you also monitor them for flying into CAS and take responsibility if they do?
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Flyingstone
There are lots and lots but to give some examples;
Jodel D18 Empty 260kg MTOW 499kg UL 239kg (80hp engine)
MCR01 Club 253kg MTOW 490kg UL 237kg (100hp VP prop)
MCR4S 340kg MTOW 750kg UL410kg (4 seats)
Jodel DR1050 415kg MTOW 750kg UL335kg (4 seats)
All but the last are based on real aircraft.
Rod1
There are lots and lots but to give some examples;
Jodel D18 Empty 260kg MTOW 499kg UL 239kg (80hp engine)
MCR01 Club 253kg MTOW 490kg UL 237kg (100hp VP prop)
MCR4S 340kg MTOW 750kg UL410kg (4 seats)
Jodel DR1050 415kg MTOW 750kg UL335kg (4 seats)
All but the last are based on real aircraft.
Rod1
Last edited by Rod1; 20th Sep 2011 at 17:38.
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VMC
I wasn't particularly disagreeing with your opinion that being a sole-owner was not relevant to the incident, although I do still believe that Genghis has a point as regards oversight of inexperienced PPL holders. Perhaps you're right, that no-one would have thought of stopping that flight, with the conditions on that day. However, we don't know the individual involved, there is a huge range of ability evident in people with similar levels of experience. That's why it's difficult to write rules for this kind of situation and why it's such an advantage to fly in a club/group environment where the individuals are known to each other. I can think of two people, each with a couple of hundred hours, one of which is quite capable of heading down country for a hour or two in IMC, the other I wouldn't let go out of our "backyard" comfort zone.
I was taking issue with your assertation that a flying school shouldn't have any responsibility for what their members do in their aircraft. Yes, when I'm there I do monitor what's going on during the day for legality and safety, I thought that was just part of the job and part of the reason bigger schools have duty instructors.
As to CAS, I certainly don't take responsibility for anything a PPL holder does as commander of the aircraft (different perhaps for students). I would try and help them if they were planning a flight where that may be an issue. But why shouldn't they fly into CAS, it's controlled, not prohibited, it's there to be crossed, with permission of course, not necessarily avoided.
I wasn't particularly disagreeing with your opinion that being a sole-owner was not relevant to the incident, although I do still believe that Genghis has a point as regards oversight of inexperienced PPL holders. Perhaps you're right, that no-one would have thought of stopping that flight, with the conditions on that day. However, we don't know the individual involved, there is a huge range of ability evident in people with similar levels of experience. That's why it's difficult to write rules for this kind of situation and why it's such an advantage to fly in a club/group environment where the individuals are known to each other. I can think of two people, each with a couple of hundred hours, one of which is quite capable of heading down country for a hour or two in IMC, the other I wouldn't let go out of our "backyard" comfort zone.
I was taking issue with your assertation that a flying school shouldn't have any responsibility for what their members do in their aircraft. Yes, when I'm there I do monitor what's going on during the day for legality and safety, I thought that was just part of the job and part of the reason bigger schools have duty instructors.
As to CAS, I certainly don't take responsibility for anything a PPL holder does as commander of the aircraft (different perhaps for students). I would try and help them if they were planning a flight where that may be an issue. But why shouldn't they fly into CAS, it's controlled, not prohibited, it's there to be crossed, with permission of course, not necessarily avoided.
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But why shouldn't they fly into CAS, it's controlled, not prohibited, it's there to be crossed, with permission of course, not necessarily avoided.
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Assume your first aircraft will lead to second, and third, etc. Ownership is not indicated if you expect to upgrade within two years. Buying/Selling is a potential nightmare, and if you must own, buy a share. I purchased my first, I wouldn't do that again. Seventy hours per year does not justify serious ownership. Airplanes are time machines, and if not used as such, are way too expensive to own.
Composite is NOT compatible with 'time'. Go Aluminum, and high wing, for value retention, or even appreciation.
Composite is NOT compatible with 'time'. Go Aluminum, and high wing, for value retention, or even appreciation.
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thing
Some pilots choose a route to avoid CAS, rather than request a clearance through it, even though that may be longer and therefore more expensive. The reasons for this may be simply making life easier, or under-confidence with the radio. That is of course entirely their choice, if your aircraft is non-radio, has a poor radio, or no transponder then fair enough. ATCOs don't bite (mostly), if you ask like you know what you're doing and in good time, you'll generally get a clearance into most CAS. The only place I've had regular refusals is the MCR CTR/CTA, folks from the South may have different experience, but I've always found E.Mids and Doncaster accommodating.
Remember it's controlled to give ATC a known traffic environment, not a no traffic environment.
I would say you have it about right, plan a direct route through CAS, but also have an option ready to remain OCAS if needed. However, if you don't do it then you can become nervous of doing it.
Some pilots choose a route to avoid CAS, rather than request a clearance through it, even though that may be longer and therefore more expensive. The reasons for this may be simply making life easier, or under-confidence with the radio. That is of course entirely their choice, if your aircraft is non-radio, has a poor radio, or no transponder then fair enough. ATCOs don't bite (mostly), if you ask like you know what you're doing and in good time, you'll generally get a clearance into most CAS. The only place I've had regular refusals is the MCR CTR/CTA, folks from the South may have different experience, but I've always found E.Mids and Doncaster accommodating.
Remember it's controlled to give ATC a known traffic environment, not a no traffic environment.
I would say you have it about right, plan a direct route through CAS, but also have an option ready to remain OCAS if needed. However, if you don't do it then you can become nervous of doing it.
£120k will buy you a lot of airplane if you are willing to compromise on the "newish". I keep hearing "new and shiny" as well in this business as well as in real estate and it regularly makes me ask the same question. Unless you are a luxury addict, why spend double the money for something which will do the same job as something a bit older but with loads of experience around and easy to maintain or adapt to what you want it to be for you.
I can fully understand why you want to go the ownership way, I have tried several times renting or even sharing and simply know today that it is not at all for me. I want to travel when I want to, want to be free to go someplace and stay there for 2 - 3 weeks without a club or flight school cashing in on minimum flight times. In other words, be my own master. Yes, I understand that. 70 hours are on the low side however, I'd either try to make that 100 as a minimum or maybe find someone else who will rent the aircraft from you for 20-30 hours per year. That way, you still are the boss but you got someone who will pay up for the hours you don't use. Works for me, I got 3 people who used to fly the aircraft before I bought it.
I am here talking EASA registered, not N-Reg, as this is not an option at this stage due to the new rules coming up in 2012. At least it would not be for me.
In the newish cathegory, £120 k will buy you a Cirrus SR20 or possibly a DA 40 someone wants to get rid of because of the Thielert issue. But don't get carried away, not the ones with the shiny Garmin toys inside, steam gauges on both. If I were to buy a Cirrus or Diamond, I'd like the ones with the screens, but they are very expensive still, way over the £120 k you have to spend. And both carry quite some maintenance issue, the Cirrus with it's parashute which needs expensive replacing and the DA40 with the Thielert Diesel engine.
However, if you consider to maybe make this 60% of your 120k to buy and 40% to fly and maintain/upgrade something a tad older, things get very interesting, at least from where I am sitting.
Let's talk TB20. That is what IO540 here flies and it's a great tourer and IR platform. There are several around in the 50-80k Euro range, full IFR, the cheaper one will probably need an engine/prop overhaul but then you have a 0 hour engine airplane. I can see at least 2 on planecheck, one of which in the UK which fall in this cathegory. A TB 20, well, IO540 can tell you all about them.
Ever heard of Mooney? I own one, a vintage M20C. It's a great little traveller, but it is the opposite of new. However, it cost a lot less than your £120k. If you look at Mooneys in the 70-90 k Euro range, you'll find quite a few Mooney 201's or 231's (Turbo) which is what I'd look at with you experience. There are several IFR Planes around, well equipped, ready to fly. If you fly alone or with one pax on longer trips, I'd look at a Mooney.
There are dozens of Pipers around of course. Arrows can be had for this price range, also IFR, normal as well as turbo. Pipers, you can even get a twin for half your money with good IFR equipment. There are Senecas and Twin Commanches fully IFR and ready to fly for 50-60k £. Twins are more expensive to operate than a single but they are twins
Then there are the Grumman AA5 range. I regard them as something like a "poor man's Cirrus", because the 180 hp one will fly as fast as an Arrow II but with fixed gear and prop. Major cost saver. They are ok for light IFR and some of them are outright bargains these days. At the moment I don't see an IFR rated one but they'll come. Friend of mine in Germany runs a 160 hp Cheetah IFR and it does very well indeed. If you don't shy away from twins, there are some Grumman Cougars around, all IFR, but they need some work. But they cost half of what you want to spend and are nice little twins.
And maybe, if you can overcome your dislike for high wing planes, there is a wide selection of Cessnas around. (I never minded high wing, actually quite nice if it rains and if you want to take fuel samples ). A Cessna 182 or 210 would do the job nicely for you too and they can also be found well in your price range.
What you need to do is sit down and define what your needs are. What routes do you plan to fly? How often? 70 hours per year is more than many people, it is borderline for an own airplane but not the worst, apart you'll find you fly more if you own. Go out and fly different airplanes, see what you like.
I can fully understand why you want to go the ownership way, I have tried several times renting or even sharing and simply know today that it is not at all for me. I want to travel when I want to, want to be free to go someplace and stay there for 2 - 3 weeks without a club or flight school cashing in on minimum flight times. In other words, be my own master. Yes, I understand that. 70 hours are on the low side however, I'd either try to make that 100 as a minimum or maybe find someone else who will rent the aircraft from you for 20-30 hours per year. That way, you still are the boss but you got someone who will pay up for the hours you don't use. Works for me, I got 3 people who used to fly the aircraft before I bought it.
I am here talking EASA registered, not N-Reg, as this is not an option at this stage due to the new rules coming up in 2012. At least it would not be for me.
In the newish cathegory, £120 k will buy you a Cirrus SR20 or possibly a DA 40 someone wants to get rid of because of the Thielert issue. But don't get carried away, not the ones with the shiny Garmin toys inside, steam gauges on both. If I were to buy a Cirrus or Diamond, I'd like the ones with the screens, but they are very expensive still, way over the £120 k you have to spend. And both carry quite some maintenance issue, the Cirrus with it's parashute which needs expensive replacing and the DA40 with the Thielert Diesel engine.
However, if you consider to maybe make this 60% of your 120k to buy and 40% to fly and maintain/upgrade something a tad older, things get very interesting, at least from where I am sitting.
Let's talk TB20. That is what IO540 here flies and it's a great tourer and IR platform. There are several around in the 50-80k Euro range, full IFR, the cheaper one will probably need an engine/prop overhaul but then you have a 0 hour engine airplane. I can see at least 2 on planecheck, one of which in the UK which fall in this cathegory. A TB 20, well, IO540 can tell you all about them.
Ever heard of Mooney? I own one, a vintage M20C. It's a great little traveller, but it is the opposite of new. However, it cost a lot less than your £120k. If you look at Mooneys in the 70-90 k Euro range, you'll find quite a few Mooney 201's or 231's (Turbo) which is what I'd look at with you experience. There are several IFR Planes around, well equipped, ready to fly. If you fly alone or with one pax on longer trips, I'd look at a Mooney.
There are dozens of Pipers around of course. Arrows can be had for this price range, also IFR, normal as well as turbo. Pipers, you can even get a twin for half your money with good IFR equipment. There are Senecas and Twin Commanches fully IFR and ready to fly for 50-60k £. Twins are more expensive to operate than a single but they are twins
Then there are the Grumman AA5 range. I regard them as something like a "poor man's Cirrus", because the 180 hp one will fly as fast as an Arrow II but with fixed gear and prop. Major cost saver. They are ok for light IFR and some of them are outright bargains these days. At the moment I don't see an IFR rated one but they'll come. Friend of mine in Germany runs a 160 hp Cheetah IFR and it does very well indeed. If you don't shy away from twins, there are some Grumman Cougars around, all IFR, but they need some work. But they cost half of what you want to spend and are nice little twins.
And maybe, if you can overcome your dislike for high wing planes, there is a wide selection of Cessnas around. (I never minded high wing, actually quite nice if it rains and if you want to take fuel samples
). A Cessna 182 or 210 would do the job nicely for you too and they can also be found well in your price range. What you need to do is sit down and define what your needs are. What routes do you plan to fly? How often? 70 hours per year is more than many people, it is borderline for an own airplane but not the worst, apart you'll find you fly more if you own. Go out and fly different airplanes, see what you like.
Then there are the Grumman AA5 range. I regard them as something like a "poor man's Cirrus", because the 180 hp one will fly as fast as an Arrow II but with fixed gear and prop. Major cost saver. They are ok for light IFR and some of them are outright bargains these days. At the moment I don't see an IFR rated one but they'll come.
Compared to a PA28-161 I used to tour in, I find it much more enjoyable, cheaper to run, better equipped, with a better view out. I've flown an Arrow a fair bit, but to be honest as an honest tourer it has no real advantages over the AA5: maybe a little more payload and 20kn faster, but you pay for that in overal running costs, the horrible Piper one-door cockpit, and to be honest a less pleasant aeroplane to fly.
G
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I'm not the type's biggest advocate but don't overlook the humble Cessna 182, your budget would easily cover an older one and might even get an early post reintroduction model (1998 and onwards I believe). Relatively simple to fly and operate although not particularly cheap in terms of the hourly cost due to the fuel consumption.
In terms of the the merits of ownership I suspect that you've probably worked out already that at 70hrs a year in a pure financial sense its not really worth it versus shares or renting. Most people seem to think that around 100-150 hours a year outright ownership starts to make more sense.
However I suspect with £120,000 to spend that's not really the point of discussion here; as AN2 points out being the sole owner of your plane means you can call the shots on everything, go where you want when you want. To some that more than makes up for the lack of financial benefit of ownership.
In terms of the the merits of ownership I suspect that you've probably worked out already that at 70hrs a year in a pure financial sense its not really worth it versus shares or renting. Most people seem to think that around 100-150 hours a year outright ownership starts to make more sense.
However I suspect with £120,000 to spend that's not really the point of discussion here; as AN2 points out being the sole owner of your plane means you can call the shots on everything, go where you want when you want. To some that more than makes up for the lack of financial benefit of ownership.
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I'm a high wing man myself, but like AN2 said if you want a good low wing tourer the Mooneys are worth looking into. Pound for pound they tend to be the fastest singles for their hp. The Acclaims and Ovations are rockets, but perhaps out of your price range.
Also, there is no way to motivate aircraft ownership. It can't be rationalised in hours, costs etc, so I wouldn't get too hung up on that. If you want an aircraft and then only fly 10hrs a year, that's OK too.
Also, there is no way to motivate aircraft ownership. It can't be rationalised in hours, costs etc, so I wouldn't get too hung up on that. If you want an aircraft and then only fly 10hrs a year, that's OK too.
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Also, there is no way to motivate aircraft ownership. It can't be rationalised in hours, costs etc, so I wouldn't get too hung up on that. If you want an aircraft and then only fly 10hrs a year, that's OK too.
In fact let's be honest, if economy really mattered to us then we wouldn't have pilot's licenses in the first place as whichever way you look at it it's a money pit. We do it because we love flying. I always find it amusing reading why it's actually cheaper and more convenient to own a Thrustair 2000 Turbo Sport to travel on business to Timbuktoo, when in fact the owner just loves flying and loves his Thrustair 2000 Turbo Sport. Nobody needs to justify it. Just revel in the fact that you can fly.
Last edited by thing; 22nd Sep 2011 at 15:01.
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I own a 172 I bought when I had 100 hours TT.
- Low Wing High Wings: I had done all my training in TB9/10/20
It's just a matter of getting used to it.
- Ownership: being the sole owner of an aircraft is invaluable (in fact it surely is, but I don't want to know). Sunny day, Meeting canceled? You go flying !
- Other things to learn: The sunny day you go flying, the battery is dead. You'll have many things to learn, you'll go to the airfield many times to do other things than flying. But if you love aviation, you won't regret it, you'll learn a lot of things about your aircraft.
- Cessna 172: one of the most reliable aircrafts, parts widely available, maintenance & repair everywhere you fly. Consider that before purchasing a DA40. It doesn't fly fast, but you fly for pleasure, so the longer it is...
You can land IFR in an international airport, and you can land in a very small grass strip. The only drawbacks are that 5 hours endurance is a bit low, and it's small (always difficult to fit my Brompton in)
- I'm wondering if a 182 wouldn't have been a better choice.
- Low Wing High Wings: I had done all my training in TB9/10/20
It's just a matter of getting used to it.
- Ownership: being the sole owner of an aircraft is invaluable (in fact it surely is, but I don't want to know). Sunny day, Meeting canceled? You go flying !
- Other things to learn: The sunny day you go flying, the battery is dead. You'll have many things to learn, you'll go to the airfield many times to do other things than flying. But if you love aviation, you won't regret it, you'll learn a lot of things about your aircraft.
- Cessna 172: one of the most reliable aircrafts, parts widely available, maintenance & repair everywhere you fly. Consider that before purchasing a DA40. It doesn't fly fast, but you fly for pleasure, so the longer it is...
You can land IFR in an international airport, and you can land in a very small grass strip. The only drawbacks are that 5 hours endurance is a bit low, and it's small (always difficult to fit my Brompton in)
- I'm wondering if a 182 wouldn't have been a better choice.
